Understanding the Torah

[Guest yod]

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[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

Would you believe, I agree with what you wrote? I too, think there is much to the Torah, and even the whole Tenakh that would benefit Christians, if only they had the "keys to understanding". Few gentiles seem to understand nearly as well as do the TRUE Messianic Jews, and I think mainly because the Messianic Jews have basically LIVED it, or are a part of the heritage of our "fathers in the Faith", but ALSO because of the "flesh" connection.

That "continue to do" part is what hurts. I want to know what He considers sin. There are things we all do in ignorance...not knowing it is sin. Does this make it any less sin? Does this mean we are totally innocent?

I see the human race as being caught between a "rock and a hard place". Paul tells us there is "none righteous, NO NOT ONE!" No one truly seeks God and all our WORKS are as filthy menstrual rags. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. That is some judgment against the human race.

As long as we are "in the flesh", we are met with opposition of the enemy. It is a daily battle, and it is all uphill. Do you see the horizon of heaven above it? That is our task, to climb that mountain and every time we hit shale and slide down a few feet, we pick up ourselves and find a way to get around it. God will always provide a way of escape, we need not stop, just because we fall back a few paces. I think King David knew this lesson, and I'm sure Paul knew it very well. That guard post that protects the Garden of Eden from being re-entered from any access point on this earth remains. No one "in the flesh" is going to find it or gain entrance to it, not shamen, guru's or new agers. The entrance to it is Jesus Christ and in Him ALONE must we trust for our salvation. NOT in our keeping of any part of the law.

But you are absolutely correct, our "training in righteousness" must ALSO include the Torah and the Tenakh, but we must understand it carefully and not let it become our dictator as it is with Orthodox Judaism. I hope this thread goes well, because I've already caught glimpses of understanding of the OT, and I'm very hungry for more.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Catsmeow]

I agree, YOD...but boy I sure have trouble with some parts of the OT...

The OT gave specific rules and laws about what to do with a person who commits adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc...and the penalties were typically...death! YIKES!

Then, for theft, the penalties were something like restoring what was stolen and multiply it by five....

I remember Zachiaus, when Jesus came to his house to stay, said he'd repent of his sins and repay to people something like that...four or five times what he'd taken.

In other words...the penalties were pretty stiff. Of course, murder and abuse of parents were extremely severe crimes and the punishment was death.

Today, we'd be considered politically incorrect to even spank a child...but the Bible tells us in Proverbs we shouldn't spare the rod...

If you look at it, Satan has taken the Bible and turned it into a very "politically incorrect" text on marriage and child rearing...and our godless society endorses this.

During the times of the OT, however, people apparently lived under a very strict code of Law with severe consequences if they were caught.

[OneAccord]

Okay, yod, since you cut and pasted that post over to here, I'll cut and paste my response over to here as well.

Incredible post, yod! Bravo!

The deeper I go into the Word, the more I find myself right where you are at in your post.

Falling in love with the law, but frustrated at how impossible it is to walk in it, given so many cultural barriers, fleshly barriers, this darned sin nature that gets in the way all the time.

Thank goodness Jesus was able to walk in it for us, for our sake, and for His own name's sake. If He had committed even one sin the law would have become imperfect as well. The plumbline would no longer be straight.

yod

"That "continue to do" part is what hurts."

Yes, and the fact that it hurts is a very good sign that you have a humble and contrite spirit, it brings forth repentance.

And that is why 1 John 1:8-10 is such a powerful passage:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

My Amplified Bible says it says that he will continuously cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It's an ungoing process.

Sometimes I think that the Word is also the Law, though I may be off on this one, I haven't studied it out.

yod

"But you HAVE kept the Passover when, by faith, you placed the blood of The Lamb over the door of your heart. You HAVE kept Shavuot (Pentecost) when you received the Holy Spirit. You HAVE kept the feast of Unleavened Bread when you began removing the "leaven" from your life. You observe a Sabbath even if it isn't THE Sabbath"

Oh, now you're spiritualizing, yod.....tempting isn't it?

yod

"The church's overall ignorance of their heritage found in the Torah is the cause of SO much imbalance and misunderstanding throughout history, imo"

There is an excellent thread in the Various Issues for Discussion room on this very topic called "Two Forms of Christianity" that you might find interesting and could probably contribute some good stuff to.

yod

"Does the new Testament make the intentions of these laws void? I believe that every word in the Torah is as relevant today as it ever was. We just need to dig until we figure out "why" the Lord gave a particular commandment. Some are just basic hygeine.....like the dietary laws or rules for handling blood..etc..These are still good rules for a healthy life. "All things are lawful for me but not all things edify"

This is exactly what I wish to explore in my walk with the Lord. It is also the original intention behind the SDA church, but unfortunately became dogmatic, and somewhat cultish. But I think they have a lot of great stuff about trying to live by God's principles (His intentions behind the laws)

Present day culture, especially Western culture, is so very far from the law of God, that a closer walk with the Torah seems radical and outrageous, even to many Christians.

Again, yod, that was a wonderful, worthy post.

[OneAccord]

As long as we are "in the flesh", we are met with opposition of the enemy. It is a daily battle, and it is all uphill. Do you see the horizon of heaven above it? That is our task, to climb that mountain and every time we hit shale and slide down a few feet, we pick up ourselves and find a way to get around it. God will always provide a way of escape, we need not stop, just because we fall back a few paces. I think King David knew this lesson, and I'm sure Paul knew it very well. That guard post that protects the Garden of Eden from being re-entered from any access point on this earth remains. No one "in the flesh" is going to find it or gain entrance to it, not shamen, guru's or new agers. The entrance to it is Jesus Christ and in Him ALONE must we trust for our salvation. NOT in our keeping of any part of the law.

But you are absolutely correct, our "training in righteousness" must ALSO include the Torah and the Tenakh, but we must understand it carefully and not let it become our dictator as it is with Orthodox Judaism. I hope this thread goes well, because I've already caught glimpses of understanding of the OT, and I'm very hungry for more.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie:

This was a really excellent post, as well. I think the Holy Spirit is hanging out in this Apologetics room lately!

Catsmeow:

I have written into the Book of Leviticus in my Bible:

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, BUT JESUS CAME TO GIVE LIFE AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY.

Even with the death penalty, the people continued to sin and sin some more. That's pretty scary!!!

[nebula]

I, too, think that is a great post, Yod! I "Amen!" it.

My two cents on the sin issue.

When I think of what sin is by definition, I believe it is any word, deed, or thought that does hurt/harm to yourself, others, and/or God (well, you can't harm God, but you can hurt Him). If you think about it, all things defined by the Bible as sin cause damage in one way or another, directly or indirectly, immediately or in the long run.

As per all the rules and regulations, Jesus did say that all the Law and Prophets can be boiled down to "Love God above all things, and love your neighbor as yourself." When I read all those rules, then, I think, "This is how to fulfill these laws of love." Think about it. All the rules of cleanliness? You are loving yourself and others by not spreading disease and guarding yourself against such. Death sentences? You are loving others by removing evil from the society (keep in mind how damaging those particular sins are). Thieves repaying 5x what was stolen? This is loving to the victim (when you rob someone, you take away from that person more than just the item, you know), it is loving to the thief (what will work into the thief a better character: doing what it takes to repay 5x what was stolen or spending time in jail?), and it is loving to both in that it can initiate reconciliation. In fact, if you go through the laws and ask yourself, "How is this loving?" it all might make more sense.

:upsided:

[nebula]

Recently I saw something in the Torah I had never seen before. There is/was a sacrifice for sin...and another sacrifice for guilt (of the same sin). This seems to indicate that we can sin without guilt sometimes? Is this speaking of sins done in ignorance?

I was just thinking about this.

It is an interesting question you gave here. I thought of another possibility.

You know how you do something wrong, whatever the motive or knowledge of it, and afterwards you feel guilty? Even after you do what you can to make your ammends, you still feel guilty? Maybe that is why another sacrifice is needed. You took care of the sin; now you need to take care of the guilt.

You may be right in your initial impression. I'm just seeing a different possible angle.

[Guest yod]

Gee I love you guys....

[traveller]

Okay - -sorry - - this is a sideline.

I absolutely love the OT, specifically, the patriarchs. Man o man, what faith and determination! Such obediance to God!

I think one of the most dramatic events in the entire bible is the signing of the covenant between God and Abraham.

The covenant was called a "barath", meaning to "cut a covenant." The two parties would divide the sacrifice and lay them apart from each other. Then the two would walk a figure 8 between them while reciting the terms of the covenant. As we know, God put Abraham into a deep sleep and God Himself, as a burning fire, and alone, walked the figure 8. wow. Totally unconditional.

RSV Genesis 15:9-21

He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." And he brought him all these, cut them in two, and laid each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. And when birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram; and lo, a dread and great darkness fell upon him. Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know of a surety that your descendants will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and will be slaves there, and they will be oppressed for four hundred years; but I will bring judgment on the nation which they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for yourself, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.

And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites."

I just LOVE this part!!

[Guest yod]

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