How would you answer?

[Guest Christian_King]

CK:

What is the answer you claim to have? Why don't we lay it on the table and see how it stacks up against historical findings, i.e. archaeological, biographic, medical, circumstantial, etc.

You just stated my answer. Historical findings, etc, etc, etc. The only reason I said I already had the answer is so people would know that I wasn't asking for myself, or to tell anyone else that would not believe in the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). I asked this simply to just see what people "think" they know [no disrespect intended], compared to what they actually "know" to be True and hard facts.

I asked this same question on another Christian site--to which I received "there is no proof" or "faith doesn't need proof or it would not be faith" replies and all sorts of other remarks beating around the bush from the Christians there.

As I said in my first post. I am doing this for a study I am working on in my spare time for a site I am going to have up sometime.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Christian_King

[WISDOM]

, ok CK, that makes more sense. I'm 150% in your corner. Now, keep in mind that we are speaking of a vast amount of info. So....where do you want to start? If we limit the discussion to one to two areas at a time everyone can chime in better, especially those who may have more corporate knowledge than others in a particular area. Does that make sense?

[artsylady]

Well, if you are interested in the facts behind Jesus. Use secular accounts as well as the Bible. I only need the Bible myself.

I would also use outside sources as they add validy and also do not contradict scripture, if I were looking at it objectionally.

In it you'll find Jesus' life up to age 12 when he is talking to the temple priest, then he disappears like most heroes only to return finally at age 30 in need of Baptism. Then he goes on to perform miracle after miracle just like most heroes of the time until he ascends. He died in the year 33.

Many Biblical Scholars know that Mark was the first book written and that clearly the other 3 gospels were derived from Mark and written then after that.

Mark, Matthew, Luke, John is the assumed order.

Actually I thought you read some of Stroebel's writings. I think most experts believe that the four gospels and quotes were derived from a main source knows as 'Q'.

Now, Mark, the first gospel written tells of the destruction of the Jewish temple which by secular accounts happened at least after year 70. That's 37 years or more after Jesus' death. There is this huge gap.

Would you mind providing this reference from Mark please?

Most of what we know from this 37 years or more gap is from the Apostle Paul that tells us in turn that Jesus appeared to him in a vision and he changed his evil ways from Saul to Paul and he accounts for a great deal of the New Testament. Paul started telling everyone that the Lord told him to spread the Gospel(The Good News) of Christ and he did it like wildfire.

I've also never heard of a gap of 37 years from Paul's conversion to his writing. Just because you believe that Mark may have been written later, doesn't mean that all of the gospels were also written later.

He would go out and tell people how ashamed they should be of themselves and their "SIN" and that they should repent their ways. Not to different from what the Military does now-a-days with new recruits.

I think you really need to look at all of Paul's writings. He is so cool in reality.

Paul's ministry spread like wildfire to people that liked it, feeling held down by the conservative Jewish state.

Why would anyone like being 'ashamed of themselves and their sin" as you say? He must have at least had some pretty darn good things to say. Possibly about Jesus' love and forgiveness and good stuff like that?

The liberal Jews of the time were for the teaching of Jesus. The first Christians were in fact, mostly Jews.

I wouldn't know if most were, but I'm not sure how it makes a difference anyway. The Jews who didn't accept him certainly didn't like him and one historian wrote that he went to Egypt where he got his 'magical powers'. Much as they wanted to deny him as son of God, they couldn't deny that there was a lot of talk about a lot of miracles.

And Paul was a big player, he wrote just over 80,000 words on the subject of Jesus. It get's crazy here though, because if no one ever really told Paul that Jesus was a man that recently existed.

Not sure of your point. I don't think you finished it.

Paul wrote much of the New Testament but he failed to mention key things in Jesus' life, such as:

Mary, Joseph, Herod, Bethlehem, the Nativity, Massacre of the Innocents, the Flight from Eqypt, Jesus and the Doctors, the Baptism, John the Baptist, the Wedding Feast, the Washing of the Feet, Jesus and the Woman of Samaria, Walking on Water, Lazarus, the Transfiguration, the Entering of Jerusalem, Driving the Money-Changers Out of the Temple, the Last Supper, the Mount of Olives, the Kiss of Judas, Jesus Before Caiaphas, Jesus Before Pilate, the Crown of Thorns, and Carrying the Cross. Paul never mentions any of this in 80,000 words, his complete documentation. He doesn't know any of the miracles or the stories of Jesus. What does he know?

That's one reason you should simply assume there was not such a huge gap. We know that he was there giving approval to the first Christian martyr and that he'd killed others. Why assume that his killing as a roman went on for 30 odd years? Even if we establish that Mark wrote his later, that doesn't mean that all of the writers also wrote theirs later.

He only mentions the final days:

Christ Put on the Cross, the Resurrection, and the Ascension. That's all, but he accounts for so much of the New Testament.

Just judging by the pages in my book, it looks to be about 1/3 of the NT.

But that's just some of the writing. Don't forget all of the Christian martyrs who chose to die rather than renounce Christ as Saviour, after he was already gone.

If it's a huge conspiracy theory, how do YOU personally explain it? Why they died? Who made up the original lies? Why people followed the lies and died for them etc.

Then Paul goes on to say that these things didn't happen on Earth, it's subject to interpretation of course and I'd like your opinion on this particular scripture:

Hebrews 8:4 says, "If Jesus had been on Earth, he would not even have been a priest."

Regarding the first reference, I would like to read it. Would you mind posting please?

Regarding the 2nd, the KJV reads

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

That's your Bible. That's a man you listen to with assurity.

Yes, so far so good.

I don't think Paul even thinks Jesus was ever a human being myself. But somehow, he's the link between year 33 and 70 and all we have to go on.

Why is it only in the modern days that people have decided to believe he didn't even exist, when even outside sources mention him, including Jews who hated him?

Ask yourself how often you get a history lesson in Church talking about the Early Days of Christianity. I'd bet it's low.

The early church history is fascinating. The message we get mostly in church is the teachings of Christ. Does that surprise you? My church also offers university accredited courses in history and theology but i think the message of Christ is paramount to beleivers.

Once the facts are assembled you get that Jesus lived up to year 33, EVERYONE FORGOT, than in 70 everyone remembers. Sounds like a ministry started. Oh but yall have the Holy Spirit and he works all this stuff into the background. You can't even Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit(the only ever present of the Trinity) or you are committing THE ONLY unforgivable "SIN."

No, read the book by Lee Stroebel. Can't remember the name right now.

Also look into Simon Greenleaf, Royal Professor of EVIDENCE at Harvard who came to the conclusion that Jesus was the son of God using proof that could be entered into a court of law. Long story but he wasn't a believer until a student posed the question "Was Jesus the Son of God". Greenleaf looked at the evidence and converted.

I'll try to get to the rest later.

[artsylady]

Once the facts are assembled you get that Jesus lived up to year 33, EVERYONE FORGOT, than in 70 everyone remembers.

The fact is that some of the gospels were actual eyewitnesses certainly lends creedence to it. And it was also written during their lifetime and they died for it.

Sounds like a ministry started. Oh but yall have the Holy Spirit and he works all this stuff into the background. You can't even Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit(the only ever present of the Trinity) or you are committing THE ONLY unforgivable "SIN."

Sorry, I missed the point on the Holy spirit point here.

Again, why would Jewish historians mention Jesus at all if he didn't even exist. Do you honestly think that the person who had the greatest impact on all of mankind didn't even exist at all? Did the martyrs not exist? His apostles? How can you delude yourself to this extreme? Did the Holocaust exist?

I really would like an answer to your conspiracy theory as to 'why' all of this happened? Why did these many people die for what they knew was a lie (particularly the apostles)? They were around him his whole life and come across sometimes as bumbling fools who also lacked some faith at times, yet after the ressurection, and then even after Christ's assention, they went on to proclaim the gospels ferverently, were jailed on occasion and ultimately faced death? Why would they do this? It wouldn't be to cause people to think new things like loving and forgiving and seeking truth, although that's part of it. It's not that because the very core of their belief that they wanted to pass on was a belief in Jesus Christ who can save people for eternity. Why die to pass on such a beleif unless they believed it were true. These weren't a brainwashed lot. They were regular men with some doubt until they'd finally seen the impossible - Christ's ressurection and then assention to heaven. Were they all so deluded to the point of being insane? All of them at the same time? Why did Judas kill himself?

Another good point often overlooked is that in Jesus day, women were not considered trustworthy witnesses in a court of law. Yet in the scriptural accounts of the ressurection, who were the first two witnesses to see Jesus? Two women? If the conspiracy theory held, they would not have chosen two women.

It get's worse though, when Mark was written sometime after year 70, allegorical literature was extremely popular. Mark probably didn't think he was writing something as profound as Christians take it today. He was writing something allegorically that makes Jesus into a Super Hero with miracles and what not. He was attributing things to Jesus so that he fulfilled prophecy. Which fulfilling prophecy is easy to do because you know what the prophecy is.

Jesus had no control over being born in Bethlehem in the limited time span allotted or to be born of a virgin. Being innocent, he also did a pretty good job of being crucified and having someone deny him for 30 peices of silver. The conspiracy theory is pretty weak.

There are other Gospels too, the Apocrypha which attributed even more miracles to Jesus to a comic book level almost. They were just too folkloreistic and so people decided to throw them out. Now imagine just how crazy the Apocrypha must have sounded if you still have Walking on Water, Feeding the 5,000, and ..................Jonah In the Whale STILL IN THE BIBLE! Jonah In the Whale........btw, there were O.T. Apocrypha as well. Plenty of them.

I'll have to look these up. And you also have to remember that the person walking on water and feeding 5000 was also the son of the God who created the world and everything in it. As Jonah was guided by this same Entity. You certainly wouldn't beleive this same God could actually perform supernatural miracles if all He is ever known for is creating the earth and all that resides in it.

Even Jesuits during the ages after the Bible was formed wanted the rest of the folklore; miracles and what have you GONE from the book to make it more understandable. JESUITS! smile.gif Of course, if you take all of these miracles and folklore away from the Bible, you don't have very much left.

Well, as God has said, his word and his truth would remain with us until the end of time.

Then you have the question of the other Jesus, that other Jews thought existed 100 years ago and was killed by order of King Alexander Junius.

Huh? I guess they must have been wrong.

In the Gospel of Peter it says that HEROD had Jesus killed.........which Jesus are we talking about? Did Pilate, who let go a ravenous murder that everyone hated so that he could crucify Jesus the new guy!!? Did the Priest really MEET ON PASSOVER???!!!! I mean, those are old testament traditions broken.

Have you seen the passion of the Christ?

Can you provide the reference for the priest meeting on passover? I only see one ot tradition broken and I'll have to look up Jewish law to answer.

Over speculation at the time. How could there be so much diversity of thought when it was such a recent event? It doesn't add up from the get go for me. It makes me wonder if we are dealing with someone real or a mythical figure that someone put into history and with evident contradictions MADE SEVERAL STABS AT IT. In your book!

Traditions broken over speculation? I'm not sure I follow you and I don't see all the diversity of thought you are talking about.

Have you read any of Simon Greenleaf's works?

Now let's look at media today. We have Movies that portray Jesus figures and have for a long time. We love those kinds of movie. I personally was a big fan of Neo(The One) from the Matrix. I loved that movie and I think a hero is what people like to see. Now before that was radio and you had the same thing, but before that was only books. The Bible being the first one spread. The hero story rewritten 4 times maybe because it was a popular story, not because they hold up each other's gospel accounts. There are parts of Luke and John that aren't in Matthew and Mark and there are part in Matthew and Mark that aren't in Luke and John. Should make you think that there was a big time gap between them or at the least that the gospel story split at some point.

No offense but I don't really have time to look at how the media portays Jesus because I'm not seeing the relevance.

Also, many people before Jesus knew of Oedipus. Oedipus was the ultimate of heroes and he had 22 things that quantifiably made him a heroe. Not surprisingly, Jesus conforms to 19 of those. Should Oedipus be our hero? For that matter, Theseus beats out Jesus at 20 points. Heros were the as big then as they are now.

How many people have heard the name of Jesus as compared to the name of Oedipus? First time for me actually. How many people claim Jesus to be their Lord and Savior as to how many claim the same from this guy. Who wrote the critereon for hero? Is it someone that saves your soul for eternity? That would be pretty much the ultimate for me.

During the same time, there were people such as Baal, Mithras, Attis, Odonis, Osirus, and many more vying to fulfill prophecy and gather a following just like people of today do to form a network. The powerful needed people, nothings changed. All of their stories are incredibly similar, even up to resurrection.

Actually I don't think they can even be compared. The Bible itself is 1/4 prophesy and none of the above can boast it coming true 100 percent. Their books can't come close to the amount of writers (66 isn't it?) who range from farmers to kings to many geographical locations over a very, very long period of history.

So who are the 'powerful people' here? Those who want us to love, forgive 70 times 7, love our neighbour and those who hate us? Obey the laws of God more than those of men? Those 'powerful people' who tell us that Jesus Christ can cleanse them from sin and offer heaven for eternity provided they beleive in Jesus?

Take a look at some of the testimonies here. Many saved from a life of drugs, depression, one even from a rape that left her unable to speak and have children, attempting to commit suicide, like many others. All have come to the saving power of Jesus Christ through a very supernatural means and all give him 100 percent credit for their amazing turnaround in their lives. When was that last time you heard someone saved from suicide attempts, prostitution, alcohol or the trauma of child abuse giving credit to Mithras, Baal or Osirus for their newness of life? Science can't explain it. Medicine can't explain it. Psychology can't explain it. It's not of this world. As the Bible says "the message of Christ is foolishness to the lost".

When Scientific Athiest became a Christian (now he's called Bread of Life) he told me that he was afraid to post about his conversion because people wouldn't believe him. I told him that we most certainly would and encouraged him to post. And we all did beleive him. Immediately. There was shock at first and then elation but never doubt among we Christians. The athiests didn't believe him of course, but that's because they aren't coming from the same place.

Even the "Church Father", Justin Martyr wrote, "When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to Heaven, we profound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter."

I'm not sure who this 'church father' is but I'm glad I don't or didn't attend his church. He doesn't get it.

Some attributes of saviors before Jesus:

was born of a virgin on December 25th

stars appear at their births

visitted by magi from the east

turned water into wine

healed the sick

cast out demons

performed miracles

transfigured before followers

rode donkeys into the city

was betrayed for 30 peices of silver

celebrated communal meal with bread and wine which represented the savior's flesh and blood

killed on a cross or tree

decended into Hell

resurrected on third day

ascended into Heaven to forever sit together with

Who else has cast out demons?

Transfigured before witnesses?

Betrayed for 30 peices of silver?

Invented communion? (I don't that's even a prophesy anyway)

Visited by Magi from the East at Birth?

Who else even boasts a resurrection at all?

Most importantly, who else has had all of these attributes?

I'd like some references of some sort of all for these as well because I've never heard of them (except the claim of being born of a virgin)

Something missing that's very important is being born in Bethlehem and during a specific time period of, what 70 years?

So even "pagans" to your faith back then would say this is nothing new, we've seen this before what makes him different.

Again, you can't provide a single person to which all of these attributes apply so it's pointless really.

again, Justic Martyr the "church father" says, "For when they say Dyonisus arose again and ascended to Heaven, is it not evident the Devil has imitated prophecy?" THAT, is the problem with prophecy.

Who is this guy and why do you keep quoting him?

Satan kept counterfeiting everything in advance of the savior? .....................

Well yes, it's certainly likely that satan did and would counterfeit some of these things but impossible to counterfeit each and every attitribute to one, and also the resurrection would be impossible for him to counterfeit.

When did it start, when Easter began 2400 years BEFORE Jesus?

Huh? Please explain.

[artsylady]

http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/chron.html

Here's a timeline of Christianity.

[Fiosh]

Hey BA,

RE your statement: "Then Paul goes on to say that these things didn't happen on Earth, it's subject to interpretation of course and I'd like your opinion on this particular scripture:

Hebrews 8:4 says, "If Jesus had been on Earth, he would not even have been a priest."

That's your Bible. That's a man you listen to with assurity.

I don't think Paul even thinks Jesus was ever a human being myself. But somehow, he's the link between year 33 and 70 and all we have to go on. "

Context, BA. If you read the entire passage it is clear that Paul is not implying that Jesus never physically walked the earth. He is saying that Jesus has now taken His seat in heaven.

The bigger question is what turned Paul, a highly respected, well-schooled, Christian-persecuting, Jewish leader, into a martyr for Christ?

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest herospirit]

Hi,

I am new here. I just joined up.

I am working on a study and have been asking other Christian friends this same question, and I would like to ask you all here and see what kind of feedback I get, so here it goes....

If a person who does not believe that Jesus ever existed, and does not believe that the Bible is real, that someone stole His bones [if you were able to get them to accept that He was alive, but they just believe that He is a man] from the tomb, then how would you prove that He did exist? I don't want no one's opinions, anyone can give me an opinion, I want proof.

If someone were to walk up to you tomorrow and ask you this same question, could you show them proof that He did exist?

I know the answer to this already. But I'm just curious as to what other Christians think.

Thanks in advanced for any answers.

Yahweh (God) bless

- Christian King

Jesus can only be viewed as one of two things. Either He was God as He said He was, or He was a blasphemer. You cannot say that He taught good things. The bible says that you can judge the tree by its fruit. Either He was God, and holy, or He was evil, and a great deceiver. You can not say that He was "just" a man, without denying His works were good.

[artsylady]

Hopefully we can keep an open mind about things too, although you will require at some point for me to just "exercise faith" and it will dissolve to that but I'm hoping it isn't soon......trying to keep some logic here.

Up to you, but belief in God does require a certain amount of faith. Again, in christianity there are more knowns than unknowns in my opinion. I do believe that if you'd ask our supernatural God he would open your spiritual eyes to the truths but of course, that's your decision. Is there a fear of asking Him who he is? I mean talking to him with a truly open and honest heart?

Let's start with the "little apocolypse", the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70ad. It's mentioned in Chapter 13 of Mark.

I see Jesus prophesying a lot in Mark 13, including the coming destruction of the temple. I think that your assertion that Mark was written after this destruction is wrong. And no need to assume all the books were also written after the destruction.

I hope that you realize that no one else comes remotely close to fitting the profile of the Messiah as outlined in hundreds of prophesies or that the work of the Bible can't be compared to any other religious writings because of it's exhaustiveness, history, prophesy and acuracy.

I'm kind of disappointed because I spent a lot of time countering your very long post and your answer to me was very short, but oh well. I guess shorter posts would be nice.

You see, what I've seen sometimes with people who want to reject Christianity and you can enlighten them and they still reject the certain truths. For example, I've seen it where an argument was countered, then ignored, then the original argument is brought up months later. I just want all of these old arguments that seem to me that have been countered to be brought to rest. Please just don't bring them up later, is all I'm asking because that's where I get tired. For this reason, I completely understand why Wisdom wanted you to answer the way he did. If a point is not conceded then it seems that it just comes up later and that means we have to go through various threads to try to find the original answer or spend a lot of time rewriting our answers. I hope you understand that it's not about winning an argument but just that we do hope you gain the understanding we are trying to give you.

Finally, the church is not about apologetic and about defending the faith, although I suppose it could have more to do with that. It was designed as a place of worship and fellowship where believers can gather together and celebrate our Lord and encourage each other. You make it sound like this is some sort of a cop out, but I will tell you personally, I need church for this reason. I also feel a great need to study apologetics on my own, but if all the pastor talked about was archaeology and church history etc, I would definitely be missing out spiritually.

I guess if I had one question for you, it would be about your conspiracy theory. Who started it in the first place and why?

[artsylady]

Well, let's start by not calling it a conspiracy theory, that has a bad name. Let's call it a theory. If you read what I type, pretty much I'm telling you that this was a disjointed book written after prophecy was filled, to make it look like Jesus made prophecy or fulfilled it in comic book fashion.

What are you trying to say? That the entire Bible was written after Christ?

So you might want to call mine a conspiracy theory, but in turn I'd have to call yours magical. Even when we don't see that kinda magic anymore.

That's exactly how a Jewish historian during the time of Christ desribed his powers. You didn't respond to my question about why Jewish writers would even write about him if he didn't exist.

Also, I'm addressing your post without address it line for line. I'm doing this for a more stream of thought approach. You called me out twice saying, "I don't know where you were going with this." I read it and it makes perfect sense and to be called out was not cool. Just letting you know, I get the impression you're a sweety though.

I actually thought you forgot the end of one of the sentences. And thank you for the compliment.

So even in that timeline you provided it dates Mark and the subsequent gospels after the year 70. It puts Paul in between Jesus' death and the writing of Mark. Here at this website:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

you can see that it's placed the same way. So you begin to see a lot of us in on this "conspiracy." wink.gif

Here's what it said.

36?-65? Period of oral tradition in Christianity between the time of Jesus and the time

the first gospel (Mark) is written, original Christians disperse throughout

Judea and Samaria (Acts 8,1ff), Peter leads the new Christian Church,

moves the Church headquarters to Rome

You have to understand that we have only recently been allowed to read or study in depth the scripture without fear of retribution. From government and the priesthood. Centuries of killing those that doubt.

Oh come on. That's just not true. It's been more than a thousand years of any such threat. And even that threat was about the power of a corrupt church, and certainly went against anything that Christ commanded us.

So, here goes, you've got Jesus who may have exist and was written about in the apocrypha, Gospel of Thomas for example. Gospel of Thomas and the like don't really give miracles or the title Son of God to Jesus.

The gospel of Thomas was found late and never included.

Some of them go overboard with Miracles.....But most just make him out to be a man.

Please name just one that make him out to be just a man. Just one.

Later on, after his death, he is attributed Super Human abilities and the title Son of God because allegorical literature was very popular. What came of it is people "believing" that he was the son of God and it made it better for those in power. So....those in power decided to force it as the new religion under penalty of death. This happened around years 300-340. This happened under Roman Emperor Constantine's rule. His own son left the nation because he found it outlandish and arrogant. People trusted their rulers way to much back then, maybe because if they didn't, they were killed.

I believe that Constantine was probably corrupt, saw a ferverncy in a large group of people only getting bigger and didn't like the lack of control. Killing them wasn't stopping them. YOu might want to look at early Christian martyrdom. Constantine felt it was best to harness the people by 'embracing' their beleif with his own man made one in order to gain control - thus creating a corruption of Christianity.

I'd like you thoughts on this...

I'm not Catholic. Can you tell? Out of curiousity, had you been at one time?

[WISDOM]

Ok Matt...I took your advice. I came over here with you and artsylady. Now, I repeat my question....what happened to the bones of JESUS CHRIST based on what I presented to you on the "JESUS" thread about Jewish customs during HIS day? Where is the Body ?

Edited January 25, 2006 by WISDOM