How would you answer?

[Inti]

Ok Matt...I took your advice. I came over here with you and artsylady. Now, I repeat my question....what happened to the bones of JESUS CHRIST based on what I presented to you on the "JESUS" thread about Jewish customs during HIS day? Where is the Body ?

If I showed you a skeleton and said it was Jesus Christ's, how without bringing your faith into it, know if it was or not?

[WISDOM]

Did you "Inti" read/research what I presented to BA on the thread mentioned?

[WISDOM]

And by the way, Inti, keep in mind that the "Church" had not yet been established. So your presenting me with a "skeleton" has nothing to do with what I asked. I repeat the question. Where are the bones?

[IslandRose]

Well, Matt, the fact that the scriptures were written after the death of Christ changes nothing. It was written by eye witnesses and those taught by the eye witnesses. The Gospels, in particular, tell us about the life of Christ here on earth, his death, burial, and resurrection. These guys were not writing novels, they were sharing details of what they had seen with their own eye. And just as eye witnesses, sometimes the details shared are different, but they are never contradictory.

What if something tragic happened and, you , Matt died tonight. Perhaps one of your friends or family remember that you have been posting here at Worthy lately and they came to us and said, could some of you write out your memories of Matt. Well, Wisdom might write about the guy who would not or could not answer his question. Artsylady, being closer to your age might talk about a bright guy who liked to debate. I, as an older lady who has had some PM's traded between us, might say he's a good kid who was respectful of me and did as I asked in a matter where he could have followed his own ways. Three completely different views.

Which of us is lying? None of us, we are all reporting the facts as we see them.

Matthew was a tax collector who had worked for the Roman government. Mark was a young man who had turned back from serving for a while and then spent his time working with Peter, probably serving as the scribe for that Apostle in his old age. Luke was a physician. He traveled with Paul and researched his books seeking out the words of eyewitnesses. John, the beloved, was a young man, who follow the Lord from the time he was but a teen ager until his death in exile when he was about 90. Each of them wrote their books from their perspective adding the accounts that stood out in their minds. John tells us "John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." Each of these me were led by the Holy Spirit tell the gospel message. Matthew, the tax collector, presented Christ as the King of the Jews. Mark, the helper, presented Him as a servant. Luke, the doctor, presented Him as the perfect man. John, His friend, presented Him as the Son of God.

You asked about Paul not writing the same things as the gospel writers, but Paul, like the others, used the information that he needed to tell what the Holy Spirit was directing him to say. It all fits, Matt. None of it has been discredited. The History books continue to confirm the fact, and it has stood the test of time.

Yes, I do have complete faith on a 2000 year old book. It is God's Word to us. To you.

[artsylady]

Sorry about the quotes. It is menacing. Last time I tried, it didn't box anything, just put the word 'quote' before and after what I wanted boxed. Maybe someone can tell me why that happened. Anyway, I did a test and the words i wanted quoted came out boxed so hopefully it will work this time.

Well, let's start by not calling it a conspiracy theory, that has a bad name. Let's call it a theory. If you read what I type, pretty much I'm telling you that this was a disjointed book written after prophecy was filled, to make it look like Jesus made prophecy or fulfilled it in comic book fashion.

But why would people die rather than renounce Christ? That makes no logical sense, does it?

No, the New Testament, and I'm saying all of it was written after Jesus died. Saul, in all his writings didn't know jack about Jesus, just the parts that lured Jews to Christianity.

Yes, it was definitely all written after he died. But he was God in the flesh speaking so if the quotes were written down later, I don't see it as a problem. I'm sure what he said would have been quite memorable.

At the time, there were "conservative Jews" and "liberal Jews" and Jesus was a liberal. He allowed for more freedom and change at the time. The liberal Jews took hold of this fact and used it to move their agenda. I like to look at people's motivations without thinking God is supplanting the "free will he gave us" to make manifest.

So you at least agree that he existed, right?

Yes, Jesus was very cool and taught us of redemption and forgiveness and all kinds of things that are very attractive of course. But he also said that people would be hated as Christians and even killed for their beliefs. And people were jailed and martyred like crazy. I don't think it's just about being some comfortable religion at all. People don't die painful deaths just so that they don't have to renounce some "easy religion."

Here's what it said.

36?-65? Period of oral tradition in Christianity between the time of Jesus and the time

the first gospel (Mark) is written, original Christians disperse throughout

Judea and Samaria (Acts 8,1ff), Peter leads the new Christian Church,

moves the Church headquarters to Rome

Exactly, "35ad to 65ad, BETWEEN the time of Jesus and the time the first gospel (Mark) is written." That is well after Jesus existed. That's the first Gospel even.

I thought you'd originally stated it was written after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Okay, so we've found some more common ground here. I agree with those dates and don't see a big problem with them. But again, that free and easy religion thing doesn't sit well with me knowing people died painful deaths rather than renounce Christ.

Salem witch trials? It's been happening a ton since then. Besides, wouldn't the first 1000 years be the most important since history influences the present?

Yes, the first 1000 years would be the most important. I'd agree with that.

The gospel of Thomas was found late and never included.

It was made back then though, while Jesus was alive, there are Tax records from the man that wrote it. I think Jesus was a man, but not the son of God that he was sensationalized to be. Even at that, which Jesus it was is inconsequential. It's people taking the part of the truth that doesn't conflict with what they know already. It's ego, it's pride.

I am one who actually enjoys to change my viewpoint if someone is capable of doing that for me. That's how I feel I've learned a long the way. I agree with your quote about the loser of a debate winning knowledge too. Regarding Thomas, I am also a person of faith who believes that God's word has been preserved as it should have been all these years. Since Thomas was discovered so late in the game, it shouldn't be included, just based on that.

Some of them go overboard with Miracles.....But most just make him out to be a man.

Please name just one that make him out to be just a man. Just one.

I told you already, Gospel of Thomas. We are talking about the books that weren't included here. Someone chose not to include this.

Oh, okay. Now, again, being a person of faith, I would have to say that this is the very reason that God didn't allow this one 'gospel' to be discovered until very late in the game. It simply didn't belong.

Later on, after his death, he is attributed Super Human abilities and the title Son of God because allegorical literature was very popular. What came of it is people "believing" that he was the son of God and it made it better for those in power. So....those in power decided to force it as the new religion under penalty of death. This happened around years 300-340. This happened under Roman Emperor Constantine's rule. His own son left the nation because he found it outlandish and arrogant. People trusted their rulers way to much back then, maybe because if they didn't, they were killed.

Obviously he was corrupt and probably suffered the same motivation you just attributed to him.

Woohoo. More common ground.

Early Christian martyrdom sincerely expresses the power of belief. So do the 9/11 terrorist today. It's the power of "faith." Is it justified? I dont' think so.

Is 9/11 justified? Not at all. Is Christian martyrdom? Yes.

I'm not Catholic. Can you tell? Out of curiousity, had you been at one time?

Can't tell, I speak more to a catholic lady on this board than anyone else. She's my fave. It sounds like you are proud to not be Catholic because maybe you can distance yourself from all of there atrosities because your church finally found the absolute truth of it all in a 20th century reformation of some kind. Which demonination do you follow?

I actually don't believe any denomination out there has the absolute truth. I actually think that satan is the one causing the division in the churches. I am not Catholic but have Catholic friends that I love dearly. We don't talk about the 'religious' things that may separate us. We do talk about our faith and share struggles and encourage each other. In a perfect world where there is no sin, there would be 'one church' where beleivers do this. We may have differences of opinion and we may even discuss them with each other, but we still love and encourage each other despite our differing opinions.

And to answer your question, I attend a Pentecostal church. I like the music. I like the preaching. I've attended Catholic mass, United, Prebyterian and Baptists, WOF, with friends and family and feel at home there too though.

I'm hoping you can take the lead, I'm getting tired of reading within quote boxes. Can you find a way to keep from doing this, I hate that is resolves itself to this finally.

Well i sure hope it works!

matt

Edited January 26, 2006 by IslandRose

[artsylady]

Bummer. Someone help please?

[artsylady]

Bummer. Someone help please? wub.gif

I've come to the conclusion that my quotes work on short posts but not on long ones?

Are the mods trying to send me a message to shut up?

Am I insane?

[Guest kdlds]

Faith is more powerful than knowledge. Knowing something doesn't cause us to act. Therefore to have proof is really not completely necessary. What is necessary is Spiritual evidence. To say Jesus exsists or existed All I have to say is look at the the lives he changed the effect he has had on the world. On a more personal level to know he exsists All I know is the the effect he has had on my life each and every day as I strive to be more like him. To learn of him, to walk with him and to talk with him.

[artsylady]

Artsy: Is 9/11 justified? Not at all. Is Christian martyrdom? Yes.

I need you to explain what you know of the early Christian mindset. Also, what you know of it's origins and what the rest of the world thought of it in it's infancy. Then clear up why early christian martyrdom is different from 9/11 on two levels if you don't mind. The first being the level of sacrifice and the second what purpose this sacrifice was for.

Well, I know that the apostles were all pretty regular guys before the resurrection and ascention - expressing doubts and having a lack of faith - even to the point of denying Christ. However, after Jesus left them, something within them changed dramatically. They were ferverent to spread the truth they knew, risking jail and excrutiatingly painful deaths.

In Christianity's infancy, Christ was either dearly loved or hated. People were passionate about him on opposite spectrums.

Thousands died for their beleif in Him. They'd rather die than renounce him. What does that tell you?

Difference between 9/11 and Christians dying for their belief? ouance. smile

It seems to me that you've cleverly avoided a very pertinent question here, once again. Were you good at dodge ball by any chance?

If there was a conspiracy or plot to make Jesus out to be a superhero and save them from strict Jewish law, then why did people die for Jesus. Why make a beleif in Jesus the crux of the whole thing? Why not make him out to be just a prophet or someone telling them to relax and enjoy life? And why did those following him around ultimately choose to die rather than renounce him?

[artsylady]

Okay quotes working on a small post. lol.

I am just messed up. Everyone else in the world seems to have no problems with this

Woe is me.