Worthy News: Ford to cut 25,000-30,000 jobs, close 14 plants - AFP

[apothanein kerdos]

Because nobody wants to pay $30.00 for a burger and $20.00 for a drink.

We wouldn't have to. Allow the high schoolers who work at night to continue to make minimum wage but the adults who absolutely need the job to make around $8-9 an hour. It evens out. Right now a sixteen year old going into a job will eventually end up making the same as a fourty year old who has just been laid off as an engineer. Chick-Fil-A actually does something similar to this. The items there are extremely cheap but the employees are taken care of. Those who are teenagers still in high school start off at minimum wage. Those in college scraping by generally make around $7 an hour (depending on the area of the nation, could be more or could be less). Those who are adults that have simply fallen down on their luck start out around $10 an hour. It has its imperfections, but it is the closest thing to how a company should be run that we can find in this nation. It is Christian owned and opperated, has a significantly high employee and customer satisfaction rate, and always makes a profit. Explain to me how they have the highest paid employees in the fast food business, but also bring in the most money. Guess your theory is out the window. Another good example is to look at how QuikTrip opperates. It's been ranked within the top ten companies to work for more than once, yet the prices are fair and the employees start at $8 an hour. These are not anomolies either. Anytime businesses employee these business strategies they always end up highly successful.

If you want to make more become worth more.

This is a Darwinian view of the world, one that runs contrary to Christianity. According to God, we already are worth more because we are in His image. Likewise, this little quote doesn't always apply. I can point you to thousands of Boeing workers who have their degrees (yes, college four year) in aeronautical engineering who are currently flipping burgers because the job market has turned upside down on them. They are "worth" more but it's not getting them anywhere.

Jesus never taught to demand more money. He taught that we should not worry about what we shall eat the next day.

Cool, then quit your job.

[apothanein kerdos]

You have never seen the books of any business have you?

Oh yeah, I'm using empirical facts. Never opened it at all. Also forget the fact that I've taken advanced economics and the philosophy behind economics from a Christian worldview...in college. That and my dad is a business consultant with specialization in credit andt his is the same model he's used to turn companies around (hasn't failed yet)....oh and one of our good friends of the family is president of a "small" bank in our city that started up two years ago and is already the second largest bank in the city...using these methods of fair wage. If you treat your employees correctly to begin with, then you don't have to worry about unions comming in and messing it up. But hey, what do I know?

The impression that businees owners are awash in money and can afford to pay a burger flipper $10.00 / hr and just eat the expense is false.

Really? So you're saying that Chick-Fil-A and QuikTrip are lying?

I don't worry about what I eat because the Lord has provided me with a job and i am gratefull for my wages and don't complain.

Which is why you're stuck with your wages.

$10.00 / hr is not a living wage for anybody but a single person. As far as the business you are talking about, we shall see how far it goes, I have yet to see one here in CA

Chick-Fil-A has been in existence since 1949 and only caters to Southern States...some of which have a competing wage of life as California (such as texas). Guess it's done pretty good.

[apothanein kerdos]

You have never seen the books of any business have you?

Oh yeah, I'm using empirical facts. Never opened it at all. Also forget the fact that I've taken advanced economics and the philosophy behind economics from a Christian worldview...in college. That and my dad is a business consultant with specialization in credit andt his is the same model he's used to turn companies around (hasn't failed yet)....oh and one of our good friends of the family is president of a "small" bank in our city that started up two years ago and is already the second largest bank in the city...using these methods of fair wage. If you treat your employees correctly to begin with, then you don't have to worry about unions comming in and messing it up. But hey, what do I know?

The impression that businees owners are awash in money and can afford to pay a burger flipper $10.00 / hr and just eat the expense is false.

Really? So you're saying that Chick-Fil-A and QuikTrip are lying?

I don't worry about what I eat because the Lord has provided me with a job and i am gratefull for my wages and don't complain.

Which is why you're stuck with your wages.

$10.00 / hr is not a living wage for anybody but a single person. As far as the business you are talking about, we shall see how far it goes, I have yet to see one here in CA

Chick-Fil-A has been in existence since 1949 and only caters to Southern States...some of which have a competing wage of life as California (such as texas). Guess it's done pretty good.

Why should I complain? Where in the Gospel are we to complain about our wages?

Where in the Gospel are we to put a gun to anybody's head and force them to pay what we consider a living wage?

Good job ignoring absolutely everything I put forth. Now that you realize your position is proven false, you attempt to implore scripture. Unfortunately, you wont' find any comfort for your beliefs there either. James 5:4 talks about how the rich have "witheld" the wages of their workers. This is the Greek word apostereo (where we get our word "imposter") which refers to not paying someone in a justifiable manner. In other words, these rich men gave the minimum ammount due and kept the rest for themselves. James condemns this action. It is the action of too many modern businessmen to pay out $6 a job (hardly a living wage) and keep the left overs. I can also point to the Old Testament where we see treating workers in this way is deplorable by God, this point is only furthered in the New Testament. If the Bible condemns it, then we certaintly shouldn't support it. The opposite of support is opposition, meaning we should fight for fair wages.

The fact is, you're left with nothing to stand on. You're a good Capitalist, but a poor Christian, when it comes to economics.

[Marnie]

I also encourage everyone to read "Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey....the reason is it really opens us up to how a business should be run Biblically.

Right on. That is an excellent book. One of my favorite quotes:

"This heightened activism has yielded good results in many areas of public life, yet the impact remains far less than most had hoped. Why? Because evangelicals often put all their eggs in one basket: They leaped into political activism as the quickest, surest way to make a difference in the public arena - failing to realize that politics tends to reflect culture, not the other way around."

A change in the culture must happen, but that will not be brought about by unions, or a new CEO or the President. People's hearts need to change; they need a "new world view." Pearcy advocates a worldview which "is based on the central turning points in biblical history: Creation, Fall, and Redemption". We need a biblical perspective on the work that we do, and on the reason for the work. One of the things I noticed when I got off the treamill of working for an organization was the freedom I suddenly had. Granted, there are some days I work 20 hours to meet a deadline or keep a client off my back. But then there are days when I can go to the Church and just play the paino and practice for a wedding or funeral or whatever, without worrying about getting back to the office. My worldview changed from one that said, "How can I make another two bucks an hour because I gotta pay off my car," to a worldview that sees an income, not as an end in itself, but as a means to an end. That's not too clear is it. What I mean is this. I spent the first 30 years of my life as a dirty rotten, unregenerate sinner. When I came to know the Lord, I realized I had a lot of time to make up. Because of injuries I sustained, there is a good chance I won't live out my alotted number of years on this earth. How can I advance the Gospel in the most effective way possible? In America, everything comes down to money. I knew I would never make enough money to do anything meaningful working for someone else. My "great wealth" as some would say allows me the freedom to, in my own way, spread the Gospel to as many people as I can. That's my world view. I think that used to be called the Protestant Work Ethic (or is the Baptist Work Ethic, I am so confused about that these days). Anyway, that's my four cents worth.

[apothanein kerdos]

Exactly. THe problem is, when we advocate a pay system based upon how much the person makes themselves worth, it ignroes and goes against the Creation and Redemption part (that is the point Pearcey makes in the third portion of her book). Again, going back to Chick-Fil-A, this is almost a perfect (almost because, being run by humans, it obviously has its errors) example of how a Christian run business should be. No one makes minimum wage, and those that have family or other duties in life are released to those duties. Managers, though they work hard, are not there every night or everyday because the company motto (besides give glory to God in all that they do) is to put family first. Getting back to the point of wages, they don't pay anyone minimum wage, people can make a decent living working there, the food is excellent, the facility remains clean, the price is not too much, and they're the most successful "fast food" chain in the US.

There's something to be said for paying your employees more than they're "worth." An employee that works for high pay is a happy employee, and thus works harder to support the company.

[Marnie]

The only problem about "paying a person what they are worth" is that of who determines the dollar value of a job? Being a market driven economy, the market does. That is the problem with this kind of discussion; we don't live in a Utopian society, and while I agree with everything you have have said, until there is a major shift in the culture, nothing will change. That is not fatalism, it's being realistic. Until the Lord comes back, we will have to deal with these sorts of injustices. Now having said that, every once in a while you do run across businesses that get it right more often than not. We can hope that in the future we will see more Chik Filet (or whatever you call it) type businesses, but you could never mandate that from the top down. The only hope I see for the near future is individuals somehow working within the system, as best they can, to bring about changes. Parents have got to wise up and teach their kids real, Biblical values as well as how to survive in our economy. Young people must learn how to navigate the maze of our corporate culture so they can make contacts, etc. and learn how to use available resources, including people (not in a negative sense). An education, sad to say, will get you almost nowhere, despite what you are told. It is a combination of a good education + knowing how the system works + knowing the right people, that = success. It's a complete lie to tell your kids, "Go to college so you can get a good job." Going to college got me an education, it didn't do a thing about getting me a job. And I never learned how to get a job in college.

But most of all, Americans have got to learn it's not about the money. Every time I looked for a job based on the how much it paid, I'd walk away depressed or unfuliflled. When I realized that my value came, not for a corporate suit, but from the Lord Himself, and I was worth enough to die for, all of a sudden my mind was opened to all kinds of possibilities I had never seen before. I then looked for a career (not a job) that would fulfill my earthly needs but also allow me to fulfill my duties and obligations as a Christian, something I take very seriously. In a strange way, it wasn't until I stopped looking at the money that the money started to come! But that was secondary, you see?

The American economy is like the wagon trains of yesteryear. The whole caravan had to travel at the speed of the slowest wagon. Our economy is like that; that's why it takes such little effort to move ahead--most people are stuck in a mediocre rut. All you have to do is exert just just a little more effort, use a little more imagination, and you'll reap the benefits. I see this a great opportunity, I don't know about you.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Marnie

[RGR]

Proverbs 11:1 The LORD hates cheating, but he delights in honesty.

Proverbs 11:3 Good people are guided by their honesty; treacherous people are destroyed by their dishonesty.

Proverbs 11:4 Riches won't help on the day of judgment, but right living is a safeguard against death.

Proverbs 11:5 The godly are directed by their honesty; the wicked fall beneath their load of sin.

Proverbs 11:6 The godliness of good people rescues them; the ambition of treacherous people traps them.

Proverbs 11:17 Your own soul is nourished when you are kind, but you destroy yourself when you are cruel.

Proverbs 11:25 The generous prosper and are satisfied; those who refresh others will themselves be refreshed.

Proverbs 11:26 People curse those who hold their grain for higher prices, but they bless the one who sells to them in their time of need.

Proverbs 11:28 Trust in your money and down you go! But the godly flourish like leaves in spring.

*All Scripture taken from New Living Translation

[apothanein kerdos]

The only problem about "paying a person what they are worth" is that of who determines the dollar value of a job? Being a market driven economy, the market does.

This is generally more theory than practice. For instance, the market is not demanding lawyers; there is an over abundance of them. At the same time, they are still paid decently high wages for their services even though they are practically a dime a dozen. It also works in the opposite form. There is a shortage of two million teachers in the United States right now. Yet the salary for a teaching has not increased upon starting. In other words, the market is desperate for a profession yet the salary is not increasing. I say that to say that the market does not always influence how much a job makes.

That is the problem with this kind of discussion; we don't live in a Utopian society, and while I agree with everything you have have said, until there is a major shift in the culture, nothing will change. That is not fatalism, it's being realistic. Until the Lord comes back, we will have to deal with these sorts of injustices.

It isn't fatalist at all; it's apathetic. I am by no means saying we should work to achieve Utopia, this is an absolute impossibility. Human nature simply prevents it. At the same time, when we see injustice we should work to strive against it. When we see a fourty year old person fired from their job for no other reason than its lay off time, and they have no other option but to work fast food or some other low wage job, we should fight for higher wages for that person. I am not advocating increasing minimum wage across the board (there is no reason an average sixteen year old needs to make eight dollars an hour), instead that when we see injustice, we don't go, "Oh well, this is part of the world" but instead fight against it.

The only hope I see for the near future is individuals somehow working within the system, as best they can, to bring about changes. Parents have got to wise up and teach their kids real, Biblical values as well as how to survive in our economy. Young people must learn how to navigate the maze of our corporate culture so they can make contacts, etc. and learn how to use available resources, including people (not in a negative sense). An education, sad to say, will get you almost nowhere, despite what you are told. It is a combination of a good education + knowing how the system works + knowing the right people, that = success. It's a complete lie to tell your kids, "Go to college so you can get a good job." Going to college got me an education, it didn't do a thing about getting me a job. And I never learned how to get a job in college.

I agree with this right here. This is what I'm doing though that you and Bernie are fighting against I'm working within a system trying to advocate change. The thing is, you have a great theory, but when it's finally put into practice you begin to fight against it...that isn't consistent.

But most of all, Americans have got to learn it's not about the money. Every time I looked for a job based on the how much it paid, I'd walk away depressed or unfuliflled. When I realized that my value came, not for a corporate suit, but from the Lord Himself, and I was worth enough to die for, all of a sudden my mind was opened to all kinds of possibilities I had never seen before. I then looked for a career (not a job) that would fulfill my earthly needs but also allow me to fulfill my duties and obligations as a Christian, something I take very seriously. In a strange way, it wasn't until I stopped looking at the money that the money started to come! But that was secondary, you see?

It isn't about the money, correct, but at the same time, I can't pay the bills off good hopes and dreams.

It is you who are assumingthat every business owner is a filthy rich wage witholding, decadent capitalist who needs to have Christians put a gun to his head and force him to pay everybody $50,000 a year.

You keep skirting the issue completely. I've destroyed your arguments on both the empirical level and scriptural level, so now you have to try and put words in my mouth. I pointed to two companies, plus two others on the personal level (making a total of four business owners) that I comended. I am not against business owners; I am against unethical business owners that keep their workers at a low wage so that they can make money.

$6.00 ? hour can provide basic food and shelter, who are you to demand more. I for one am simply grateful for what I recieve.

Gratiuity doesn't pay the bills. Plus, $6 cannot provide the basics if you have a wife and kids. It only provides poverty.

The rich have their reward in full and I refuse to join your hatred of them and thus refuse to put a gun to thier head in tha name of Christ.

Yay, rhetoric that doesn't apply to the topic.

Follow Marnie's example and actually stick to the facts. Drop the rhetoric, it's all you have to go on and it's honestly sad.

[Marnie]

"Follow Marnie's example and actually stick to the facts. Drop the rhetoric, it's all you have to go on and it's honestly sad."

Okay, I detect a slight compliment there. You may think there are too many lawyers--and I am inclined to think that too--but they can charge their fees because we will pay them. Baseball players are paid way, way too much in my opinion, but that's what the market will bear. As long as we buy the tickets, or buy the products they sponsor, they are "worth" what they are being paid, because that is what they are being paid.

And, I guess I am not the very best example to follow about "working within the system." I got out of the system and made it on my own. I know a lot of people can't do that.

I find this whole thread fascinating, because I also agree with Bernie. He is right--nobody is forcing anybody to work at such-and-such place. I know you, AK would disagree with me, but I honestly believe most (not all, mind you) people are where they are in life because that is where the chose to be. Now, they may complain about the state they're in, they may hate their job, but when they get up the next morning, they will punch the exact same time clock. I think fear is what keeps a lot of people feeling trapped. I think sometimes kids are raised by parents that have low expectations of them, so they never rise above a certain level because they don't think they can.

We live in a fallen world, and both AK and Bernie know it. And I think we are all looking for the same thing--to make a way as best we can. It's a struggle, whether you have a lot or not. I was thinking earlier; I would give up my career in a minute and go to work flipping those burgers if I could have one day of speech. It's all relative.

[apothanein kerdos]

If we aren't suppose to worry about material poverty, then why does the Bible spend over 2,000 verses dealing with how we are to care for the poor? Bernie, your arguments are getting sillier and sillier.

Okay, I detect a slight compliment there. You may think there are too many lawyers--and I am inclined to think that too--but they can charge their fees because we will pay them. Baseball players are paid way, way too much in my opinion, but that's what the market will bear. As long as we buy the tickets, or buy the products they sponsor, they are "worth" what they are being paid, because that is what they are being paid.

It is a compliment. Anyway, that's stealing the market, not market demand. There is a difference, and stealing the market can often be unethical. It is not always, because there are some lawyers and some athletes that use their money for the betterment of the community.

I find this whole thread fascinating, because I also agree with Bernie. He is right--nobody is forcing anybody to work at such-and-such place. I know you, AK would disagree with me, but I honestly believe most (not all, mind you) people are where they are in life because that is where the chose to be.

I think it depends on where you grow up. People who have grown up in Michigan, Wichita, west Texas, or other industrialized areas generally realie they have no choice. In Wichita, for instance, Boeing closed up and thousand of people lost their jobs. Being that the aero industry is the only thing in Wichita, people were left finding low wage jobs. The same is true in Michigan when the car industry busted. There are certain areas of this country where, when an industry collapses, people have but one choice; accept low wage jobs. True, this shows the fault of the economic developers, but it doesn't change the fact that the people suffer for it. They could move, but this assumes they make enough money to move.

We live in a fallen world, and both AK and Bernie know it. And I think we are all looking for the same thing--to make a way as best we can. It's a struggle, whether you have a lot or not. I was thinking earlier; I would give up my career in a minute and go to work flipping those burgers if I could have one day of speech. It's all relative.

The problem is, only one of us (me) is looking at this through a biblical worldview. Bernie is almost decidedly looking at this through a darwinian/secularist view (as most Christians do).