Trinity and Monotheism

[billcompugeek]

It is absurd to close a previous thread on the trinity because this will be argued about long after I am dead. The first church to declare three divine persons from eternity happened late in the Catholic Church at the Nicean Council. Before this, belief in multiple persons in the trinity was never written down or ever really thought of. This statement about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit or three divine persons has been repeated so often that the other side of the argument can't be backed up by official church writings that pervade most of the Christian Churches.

Yet Jesus says believe in Jesus and in Jesus's name. Remeber, nobody except the polygamous false prophet Joseph Smith has ever said that he saw the Father in bodily form standing right next to the Son in bodily form. Are we to take his word? I think not. Also, God is infinite. Moses - denied to see God. Philip - denied to "see" the Father. Philip was told the Father was with Christ and Christ with the Father. So what is going on? A human being cannot see what is infinite and God is infinite. When we attribute a body to the Father we are basically saying God is not infinite. Swedenborg describes God as having two things that are alive - Love and Wisdom. The Father is infinite love, the Son is the visible truth, the Holy Spirit is the works of God going forth from that union. This is not more than one mind, this is not more than one personality and this is not more than one body. Remember the Jewish religion was monotheistic and the Jewish religion was given by God. I think monotheism and Christianity go hand in hand !

[Ovedya]

Who is this person that you keep talking about? Seriously, you almost sound like a fanatic the way you keep talking about this person.

Moses spoke to God "Face to face.": "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Exo. 33:11); "And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face," (Deut. 34:10)

There are almost countless examples from Scripture that can be cited with language that personifies the three divine Persons of the Godhead. No language that I am aware of uses terms like "He," and "Him," and other personal pronouns to describe a nebulous thing.

Also, Abraham and Joshua also met with the pre-incarnate Christ, Who was in the figure of a man.

Sorry, but I have a certain disposition for trusting the Word of God more than the word of a man.

[billcompugeek]

Moses seeing God face to face doesn't mean that Moses saw infinity. Moses saw a burning bush because God did not have a body then. The Son of God (the truth of God in bodily form) came to glorify a body for God. Now God appears as Jesus Christ the Lord. God is Jesus Christ the Lord. Jesus said believe in Jesus's name and be saved. He did not say believe in another.

[Ovedya]

Moses seeing God face to face doesn't mean that Moses saw infinity. Moses saw a burning bush because God did not have a body then. The Son of God (the truth of God in bodily form) came to glorify a body for God. Now God appears as Jesus Christ the Lord. God is Jesus Christ the Lord. Jesus said believe in Jesus's name and be saved. He did not say believe in another.

First, I didn't say that Moses saw infinity. See that's the benefit of believing the Bible instead of believing some preconception, or believing an interpretation of a certain man who claimed to have spoken with the spirits of Moses and Jesus. I only have to believe what the Bible says, and nothing else. The Bible says that Moses met with God "face to face." Now, are you going to tell me that God does not have a face?

Yeah...I looked up Emanuel Swedenborg on Wikipedia. Aside from suffering from certain delusions of grandeur (in my humble opinin) Swedenborg apparently set up a church denomination called "The General Church of the New Jerusalem," in which is it claimed that he asserted that his writings were equal to those of the Bible.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg

And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Church

[InternalFlame]

In my opinion, God can be both one and three. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a part of God, therefore one. Yet seperate as well.

Edited February 3, 2006 by InternalFlame

[billcompugeek]

Swedenborg did not start the General Church of the New Jerusalem but said the New Jerusalem has two principles. That God is One and that there is a conjunction of charity and faith.

Swedenborg was never interested in starting a church but in writing doctrine and distributing these books at much personal cost but he was glad to do it.

This would be hard to understand if you prefer to follow the Catholic Nicean Council and keep on repeating "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" and "Three Divine Persons from Eternity."

Again, something that shouldn't have to be repeated, the Jewish religion was given by God and they were staunchly MONO-THEIST. God doesn't change so monotheism must still hold water.

[Copper Scroll]

There are almost countless examples from Scripture that can be cited with language that personifies the three divine Persons of the Godhead.

This is very similar to Hinduism. If my understanding is correct, Hindus believe in a singular Godhead manifested as various personalities. This leads me to believe that if Hindus must be considered "polytheistic" so must Trinitarian Christians.

[Ovedya]

There are almost countless examples from Scripture that can be cited with language that personifies the three divine Persons of the Godhead.

This is very similar to Hinduism. If my understanding is correct, Hindus believe in a singular Godhead manifested as various personalities. This leads me to believe that if Hindus must be considered "polytheistic" so must Trinitarian Christians.

Nope. Hindus are purly polytheistic. Vishnu might manifest himself in various forms (ie. a man, a dog, a cow, etc.), but that's not nearly the sme concept as that of Trinitarianism.

[billcompugeek]

If the Holy Supper has two things that Jesus Christ wants to draw your attention to, it doesn't mean anything to do with different personalities. You have a left and right hemisphere of your brain. Yet you are wholly one person. You have a soul and a body yet you are wholly one person. You have a left and right hand yet you are wholly one person. Can't God talk of what He has without people trying to attribute to Him several "personalities?"

[Ovedya]

Swedenborg did not start the General Church of the New Jerusalem but said the New Jerusalem has two principles. That God is One and that there is a conjunction of charity and faith.

Swedenborg was never interested in starting a church but in writing doctrine and distributing these books at much personal cost but he was glad to do it.

This would be hard to understand if you prefer to follow the Catholic Nicean Council and keep on repeating "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" and "Three Divine Persons from Eternity."

Again, something that shouldn't have to be repeated, the Jewish religion was given by God and they were staunchly MONO-THEIST. God doesn't change so monotheism must still hold water.

Hmmmm..."God does not change." That's the catch-phrase of the day, isn't it? Yet, what a horrable misunderstanding that limits God's ability to change as He pleases. God's righteousness, holiness, justness, and truth does not change. That is the meaning of the phrase.

So Wikipedia is wrong about Swedenborg? What about the following website?: http://swedenborg.newearth.org

As I wrote previously, Swedenbord was a crackpot, and I trust only in the Bible.