Saved by faith.

[ElijahSK]

cardcaptor,

Based on your last post, I am assured now we are merely writing the same points in different ways. First, let me clarify that in saying we don't need daily forgiveness of sin, I'm not saying that we don't need our sins covered by the blodd everyday. But those sins past are once for all covered in the blood, and now that we are freed from that body of sin and death, we should no longer continue in the acts of it either.

A Christian does not die in sin. One who doesn't believe dies in their sin. A Christian (Christ-Like) by very definition is the one that ceases his own life, to allow Christ to live through Him. He died to his flesh so that he may live to the Spirit. Why we remove people from our fellowships when they do not show the fruits, is to disconnect that one with the body of Christ. When the man in Corinth was cast out, he being a believer was convinced on his sin. He repented toward God and when that was occomplished they also received him back. Matt 18 tells us that if a man is in a trespass, we should correct him. If he doesn't receive it, let 2 or 3 witnesses bring it against him. If he will not hear them, then let him be unto you are a heathen. For the church as it was back then, that was to be removed from fellowship. Because they didn't believe in the evangelical meetings like we have today. Their meetings were to eat and fellowship with the fellow brethren. And some of the brethren having ate the meal that was the Lord's supper unworthily fell ill even unto death. The Lord's supper as Jesus began it was "in remembrance of" Him. That remembrance in the Hebrew is possessive, in other words Jesus said do this to remind me. The Lord's Supper is a meal that reminds Christ of the marriage supper of the Lamb. Beckoning Him to return soon.

We are not past being tempted. Rather we being dead, overcome it outright. If you want the better reward and you have faith in God's promises, you'll overcome. If you have faith in the words of Jesus telling you you are free indeed, you will overcome. If you want to be raised with Christ, by faith you'll overcome. If you have faith as to believe you are dead and you life is hid with Christ, you'll overcome. If you believe that he who sins is a servant to sin (as the Bible says), by faith you'll overcome. If you understand by faith that God is all knowing and the ONLY WISE that made His laws as a system of perfect justice, then you'll keep His commandments because even though you can't understand why it must be this way, He is the only wise, and so by faith you overcome. If you believe in Jesus (which He said if you believe Him you'll do as He says), you'll overcome.

But if you don't have faith, you'll fail. If you follow after the flesh so as to be it's slave, you'll fail. If you don't trust God's word, you'll fail. Basicly, and the sum of all of these is, if you are not a Christian (the elect, the church, a devote believer), you'll fail.

Not that I always knew what I know now. But that now that I see the truth, I am overjoyed by it. To know that sin need not ever be a part of your life again by the grace of God, is like nothing else. The best gift you'll ever get is free. And it's there for the taking for those who God's elected, even all of those who will believe. Whereas I never experienced freedom from sin in almost 9 years with Christ, now the instant I heard the word taught for what it was plainly saying I was set free from everything that once bound me. Once I left all of my traditional meaning of the scriptures I read, and saw the context they were written in, I began to relate to what they said. Not that I expereienced it, but that it was a solid train of thought. And once I got on the train, well what more would you want? Except maybe to see the church formed again. Meeting with each other house to house daily, eating together during that meal taking the Lord's supper, continuing in the apostle's doctrine, all in one accord, glorying and praising the Lord! To which, when the world say so admit a group of people who took no thought for what they said, instead told them that God is great, this is sin and you have done it, the price is death, but God who you owed the debt to paid it for you, but to come to Him you must do what He says, and the only way to do that is by being crucified with Him, and when you are you will be raised in the likeness of Him so you should walk in newness of life! Yes, all you need is to have God kill you right here and right now, and you'll be free from every sin that holds you as it's slave! That is true revival. Then people will leave the building made for Christian entertainment once a week, and start going to meet each other everyday so that they can glory and marvel and God's amazing works. Then God will add to us daily.

Because no matter what they say, we take no thought of it. We just hold to the faith. Defend it when necessary. Never wavering, never faltering, but always letting everyone around us know that there is a way to escape the wickedness of this age. The only way, that is by the grace of God through the sacifice of Jesus Christ which we by faith affirm has delivered us from sin and death.

Edited March 18, 2006 by ElijahSK

[Triple Crown]

ElijahSK,

Forgive me if I have missed it in this post

but would you be able to share with us what you're repetitive sin was?

Grace and peace to you all

in His service

TC

[ElijahSK]

Hello ElijahSK,

I thank you for clarifying your positions in these matters. Again, I find myself for the most part agreeing with what you said. Once again, your latest post causes me to ask you another question concerning your beliefs. Are you one of those that believes that since you are a member of God's Kingdom, you are not to have anything to do with what happens in this nation. What I mean is, do you have similiar beliefs to the Menonites who will not have anything to do with politics?

I believe as you do we must put God first. I also believe we are members of his heavenly Kingdom, and that is where our first allegence must lie. At the same time, Jesus told us to occupy or make busy till he returns. He refers to us as the salt of the earth. Since salt is used as a preservative, it is my belief we should do everything in our power to influence things for the good. At the same time, I reject the favorite saying of much of the church world today that says, we can be too heavenly minded to be any earthly good. It is my contention that being heavenly minded is the only thing that makes us any good on earth. To be worldly minded will lead ultimately to death.

Thanks again for another thought provoking post. I look forward once again to hearing your reply.

Butero, you just can't stop with the good questions, can you? Thankfully not.

First, I would like to point out that politics is the art of compromise, and that a Christian (that is a mature, true Christian) is uncompromising. So although they could run for office, I would believe that their beliefs would most likely keep them from being elected. But this is not really the point I am trying to make, just the one I am getting started with.

Secondly, Daniel when it came to interpretting the king's dream described the nation of Greece as inferior to those kingdoms before them. Greece was the first to split up the nation into multiple city/states, each one having it's own king. After them, Rome is described as iron mixed with clay. Unlike the days when King's ruled over their countries sovereignly, in Greece and Rome they could not find anyone who would be able to rule as such. They formed republics and democracies to satify the people.

God, first ruled Isreal as King. In the wickedness of their heart, they desired someone who they could behold with their eyes to fight for them as the rest of the countries. So God gave them the judges, great men of victory, and alot of if not all the time made them go against impossible odds. This was to make them remember it was not these judges who won the victory by strnegth of might or numbers, but God who had handed them over into their hands. They would not be satified with God compromise, for they didn't have faith that He would always be ultimately correct and perfect in everything. They, in their iniquity murmured against God and asked for a king. God finally gave it to them, and gave prophecies telling of the King of the Jews. That was His Son reclaiming His rightful place.

It says that the hearts of the kings are in the Lord's hands, and He moves them to and fro. We see in Pharoah's case, even though he repented a couple times, God would always harden his heart (and other times he'd harden it himself). God gave the people of Rome and Greece rulers that were tyrannical, and their only choice was to take the power away from these kings. Giving us a the well meeting democratic and republic systems. But people were not meant to rule themselves. If you have a majority of people disbelieving God, then you'll see what the old testament prophets said would happen. That is we would have nations that enact evil laws. It's not hard for people when they rule themselves to change laws to reflect their apostate hearts.

I'm not completely against politics. I always vote for the Liberaltarian or Constitution parties. They are for making the government small and giving them less power. Which if the story of the end times is true, these laws we have today make it all the easier. There was a county in NC that it was manditory for everyone to own a firearm. They saw a massive drop in violent crime and really all crimes across the board. If I'm going to rob a bank, I bring my gun and stick up the cashier, if everyone else in that place had a firearm, the bank may erupt in laughter. The right to bear firearms was not put in the bill of rights so people could hunt. The right to bear firearms was given because if the government tells everyone they can't have firearms and then goes bad, the bad guys are the only ones with guns.

There are many issues I have opinions on. And if I am asked about them (ie. I am asked once every 4 years in November), then sure I'll give an answer. But my thoughts on them will always lead me back to the Bible says this and so it would be best if this happens.

But I'm not attempting to make our government right, and it doesn't make me worry or fear to see a government as corrupt as our in America today. Because I expect it, Jesus is coming back soon. And I know by many prophecies in the Bible, that we will have a one world government, one world religion, and they will force people to renounce true faith in Christ or die. Is it a surprise that everyone is free to teach damnable doctrines to our children in school, but Christians are allowed to have any voice even though the proof is on our side? Science always supports God. Science falsely-so called, supports those things contrary to the litural translation of the Bible. Why are Christian parents not teaching their own chidren anyway? That's how they did it in times past.

Being too heavenly minded to be good to the earth is our goal. The world is fallen, we are to rule over it with wisdom, but it cannot be so with so many ignorant people. The most influential thing you can ever do it seperate yourself from the world. If the believers would do that, although they won't change the world, they'll change those who God draws to look upon their examples. It will be clearly seen that Christians aren't those people you see in church, they are the church. Their life is at all times caught up in glorying God, praising God, strengthing each other in their faith in Him. However we may have acted in "church" on Sunday, that is how we should be acting 24/7, and not in a temple made with hands that people mistakenly call the house of God. But in our houses, our brethrens houses, our workplaces, any place we find ourselves. Going to that bar wouldn't be so bad, if the whole time you were there you were glorifying God, letting you voice be heard that God is coming soon. Not being given to strong drink, but letting your light shine.

Having a mind to change things on this earth will only end in disappointment. God frustrated the plans of men. But if you are asking for the things He's waiting to do, then of course you'll suceed. But it is God's will for this world to grow in knowledge, and become ever more apostate. He is seeking an opportunity to be against them. So they enact evil laws, and they say look we now don't have to worry about punishment for murder. But God mocks at them from heaven. He lets them go their wayfairing way so that at some point Christians will finally realize we need to seperate ourselves rather than be part. Bad company corrupts good morals. You may have good intentions in changing them for the better, but the only way to truly change them for the better is through Jesus Christ. Fixing them up to try to make them presentable does nothing, what they need is to die.

I have many, many more thoughts on these questions, but I am going to stop hear to see if you can understand the answer thus far. You're questions are ever welcome and if I didn't clarify something let me know.

If I am be so bold, in love not in haughtiness of spirit, I would ask you this. Should we busy ourselves with the issues of this world? Or should we busy ourselves with the church (body of Christ)? I see busying ourselves and not being idle. We work so that when a brother is in need, we have that money to give him to satify that need. When we have enough to supply for all the brethren around us, then we spend our time glorifying God for supplying and seeking Him while He is near. I think I may have accidentally answered my own question, but I welcome my brother's thoughts as well.

ElijahSK,

Forgive me if I have missed it in this post

but would you be able to share with us what you're repetitive sin was?

Grace and peace to you all

in His service

TC

Sure, I was a chronic fornicater since 6 days before my 13th birthday. I can say so without shame now, because now I know I'm freed from it. Now that I have freedom, I would not return into that bondage. And I can go without returning to it because my faith has overcome the world.

The one thing I was missing from the time of my youth up until last month was the knowledge of what Christ accomplished. Once you have that knowledge, any chronic/repetitive sin you may have is gone away. You may be chronicly tempted for a time after you are dead, but the power of temptation is gone.

I never had a problem in repetition with any other thing. Although I won't say I have never done this or that, but after a time or two I would leave it not to return because it was just not worth it, and there is so much more to obtain by denying that temptation it's place. There is no temptation not common to man. So I rejoice at my every victory because if I can do it, I know anyone else can do it as well. I'm farmiliar with the infirmity of the flesh, and now I know of the freedom of the Spirit. I know that the Spirit gives overcomes every infirmity of the flesh. And that alone is enough to make me glad.

[Fiosh]

Hi ElijahSK,

Thank you for initiating a thought-provoking discussion. Please consider these passages addressing what Jesus had to say about this issue:

Matthew 7: 21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 19

16 Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"

17 He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18

He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

19 honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

20 The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"

21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Matthew 25

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jesus sounds serious to me.

Romans 2:

...God,

6 who will repay everyone according to his works:

7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

James 2:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

And last, but certainly not least....

I Corinthians 13:2

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

His willing slave ........and sister,

Fiosh

[ElijahSK]

Hi ElijahSK,

Thank you for initiating a thought-provoking discussion. Please consider these passages addressing what Jesus had to say about this issue:

Matthew 7:21

Matthew 19:16-21

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus sounds serious to me.

Romans 2:6-8

James 2:14-17

I Corinthians 13:2

His willing slave ........and sister,

Fiosh

Fiosh,

Verse after verse right on. Thank you for adding more material to the topic. The verses you brought up I believe show you're agreeing with what we've been over already. I'd like to comment on them, just so if I'm wrong you can see what I'm thinking by saying that.

Throughout the verses in Matthew that you posted we see the seperation of the believers from the unbelievers. Not that they were seperated physically in these verse, but that they each were completely different. Like the difference between hot and cold, black and white, darkness and light, righteousness and unrighteousness, so is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. There is no way to reconcile them together.

Also in those verse we find the last thing that abideth. We've talked on faith. We've talked on grace. We've talked on the hope we have that if we are dead with Him, we believe we should be resurrected with Him. And that in enduring temptation we should receive blessing and the crown of life from God. Also many other things we by faith hope to obtain or overcome. But that last thing mentioned is love or charity. And indeed we saved the best for last here.

The reason for our faith in Jesus is not because we loved Him, but because He first loved us. And He died for us while we were yet sinners. Compassion breeds love. And love breeds compassion. Seeing His compassion on us in our state, we love Him. Seeing His love for us, we have compassion toward His cause. We saw that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. And what is the sum of all His commandments? To love God with all your heart and soul. And to love your neighbor as yourself.

Our love for God takes away the burden of his commandments. It's no longer a burden to do what He says, but it is a joy. Everyone should know you are a Christian by your love. Love bears, believes, hopes, and endures all things. But better is an open rebuke than a silent love. To rebuke is not to not love, it is to care enough about a person that when you see them in err you want to help them out of it. Think about a society that based everything it did on love as seen in 1 Cor 13. They suffer long. They are kind. They don't envy each other (this is all the more easy when you have people meeting each others needs). They boast not in themselves. They don't seek their own, rather they look out for the good of all the brethren. Not if I get this new job, I'll be able to get all nice stuff, rather if I get this new job and since I have enough stuff to get me by, I'll be able to get so-and-so back on their feet and they'll be beyond thankful to God for find brethren to help them in a time of need. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with nice things. But I personally think that if it's between me getting new things to replace the old, I'd rather get someone else something to have when they don't have anything. We brethren are suppose to seek to be equal in everything. To the point where the early church would even go sell there things so those of them that were barely making it or not making it by would not have to beg for bread. If you had this problem and that problem from before you were saved and it was in the means of the whole of the congregation of believers to solve that problem, then back then consider it done. You can't help but love someone when you see they care for you.

Let me try to explain just in short how the New Testament church was so powerful, and why you may have seen the poor of this world so rich in faith. Imagine you had practically nothing back then. So random believer delivers to you the salvation message. He tells you if you want to be free indeed then all you must do is believe. You believe and the man invites you to come over to his house with him. At very least you think it is better than your street corner so you go with him. You get to his house and his wife is cooking up a few things. He tells you that all the believers in the vacinity are coming over, and they're all bringing a little something, so not to worry, I'm sure your hungry now but in a little while we're going to fill you up. People start to show, and everyone that you see seems to be excited about the same thing. Every person coming through the door is enthrolled with God. One after another after another glory and praise God. Everyone gets there and now there is a great feast before you. Everyone starts to dig in. During the meal some random person starts up, he takes piece of bread and blesses it and passes it around. He says now we all know that Christ's body was broken for us, let us eat this bread to remind Him. He then takes a cup and blesses it he drinks it am passes it around. And he says, this is Christ's blood which He gave for us, now let us drink this to remind Him. What are they reminding Christ of? The wedding supper of the Lamb. You see everytime the Lord's supper was taken back then it was during a meal. The meal was to remind them and Christ to return quickly, for they had faith, and they knew that a great feast was being prepared in heaven for them. So there meal was to keep it fresh in there mind that heaven was coming soon. They are all full by the time the meal is over. Now each man brings a teaching, bringing to the table what God had been showning him in the word. Each one brought a prophecy, and two or three shared. Each one a tongue, and each one an interpretation. After the evening is over you being a new believer are just amazed at how much all these people love God. You're kinda sad that the night is over so soon even though it had been hours and hours. The man who invited you over to his house says I got an extra room and some clothes I think will be a perfect fit for you. Now that Christ is with you, don't be troubled by anything, we all take care of each other. You can't help but be grateful and awe struck but this mans pure love. Now you venture a single question before retiring for the night. That was awesome tonight, when are we going to meet again with our brethren? The man looks back at you, oh that, we meet everyday and do that.

That is as brief as I come make it and still do it a little justice. Can you see how everyone in that church would be strong in faith especially the poor? Let the man of lowly degree rejoice in that he is exalted. And he'd have no trouble with rejoicing in that kinda church. Christ holds the answer to every problem in the world. The church is how we can experience Him to the fullest extend we can here on earth. But not this church we have today, the church that is the body of Christ meeting as we ought.

That is a church that God has no problem being called the God of them. He's not ashamed of them. In fact, He gives them signs not to prove Himself, but because they are doing everything He says, He'll do the things they ask of Him. That kinda church produces people with faith like Peter when he said, "Silver and gold have I not, but such as I have give I thee, rise up and walk." and then he took him by the hand and pulled him up.

The church meeting as it ought is the easiest way to see love in truth.

[Fiosh]

Hi ElijahSK,

Thank you for initiating a thought-provoking discussion. Please consider these passages addressing what Jesus had to say about this issue:

Matthew 7: 21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 19

16 Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"

17 He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18

He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

19 honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

20 The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"

21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Matthew 25

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jesus sounds serious to me.

Romans 2:

...God,

6 who will repay everyone according to his works:

7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

James 2:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

And last, but certainly not least....

I Corinthians 13:2

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

His willing slave ........and sister,

Fiosh

ElijahSK,

While what you say about the church extending charity to the less fortunate is absolutely true, it is not the main focus of these verses. We are not called to show charity to others merely to entice them into the church.

We are commanded by Jesus to service. It is firmly tied to our salvation.

Serving our neighbors does not automatically flow from the recitation of the sinners' prayer, as some would have you believe. Yes, it is an outpouring of our love of Christ. Yet, nevertheless, it is a dying to self that does not come easily to most of us. Giving of ourselves and of our "treasure" takes an act of selflessness....an act of the will......that often goes against our fleshly nature. It takes a surrender to the grace of God---Christ in us.

We are saved by grace thru faith, yep. But we MUST take that a step further and serve Jesus in the least of these........or perish in the eternal fire. Jesus' words, not mine.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest shiloh357]

No so. The part of you that is recreated does not sin. The reborn human spirit cannot sin. It is your flesh that sins.

shiloh,

I understand this point of view, in fact it was the one that I held up until recent. I've found that to be an experiential way to look at the issue, rather than a biblical one. Myself, wanting to stick with what we see in the Bible (despite how it doesn't add up to what I experience), must accept the words as they are written or deny them as they are written. What Paul says in chapter 6 here in Romans is very simple to understand. He states, "Knowing this, that your old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." So here we see that the "old man" also known as that part sold under slavery to sin and death or the flesh has been crucified. God doesn't help us overcome sin. He kills us, and once we are dead then we are free. So to that some may say, the old man is crucified but I must die daily. Well, to respond I'd kep reading a couple more verses. "For in that he died, he died unto sin once; but in that he liveth he liveth into God." So we don't die and die again and again. Rather it was done once, and now that we profess Christ we are dead and now live unto God. Next verse, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." He says Christ died once and now lives unto God, likewise you believe/think/know yourselves to be dead inDEED to sin, but alive unto God. He goes on to speak about who you yield yourself to to them you are servants. Whether to sin unto death or righteousness unto life. Really there is no way to explain it better than Paul by the inspiration of God did in these passages. All we must do is accept it. Believe it, even as Abraham believed he was the faith of many nations but never saw it. Our God is a God who declares the things that are, as though they are. God's elect are the only ones throughout time that when He made such declarations who believe Him on His word. Our task has not changed today.

To put things maybe a little more into perpective for you. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Carnally minded is walking after your senses and what you perceive. Like saying I just can't get this old man down. Well, he's not to be gotten down. He is to be killed. You see the world, if you come to them with a problem will take you to the source. They'll take you back through you history and find all those events that happened when you were a child (or maybe even generation curses) that make you do what you do. It's like if you were a car, and they are the mechanic. They'd be changing you fluids, putting air in the tires, new spark plugs, checking the engine, checking the tranmission. They'd say man you've beat up on this car, where have you been with it? That's the world's way to handle it and they do a fix it up job. On the other hand, God is completely different. You bring your car to His shop and tell Him it's been a long road, need some fixing. He tells you to go park your car out back. You go park it give the keeps to a worker and watch them drive your car into a crusher. You are maybe shocked, but what can you do? You run to God and tell Him, I asked you to fix my car, what have you done to it? He says that ol' piece of junk, forget about it you're riding shotgun with me now. You see God isn't about fixing you up so you can fight against sin. He isn't about giving you that power to overcome it. He won't answer your prayers when you ask "God, help me get rid of this sin." No rather He stands at a distance, and crucifies you together with Himself. Then He resurrects you and says now go and sin no more. Will we trust in God's word or in the power of sin in our bodies? Each is a master, each leading you in a different direction. You have to pick which way you're gonna go, and trust me there is nothing like being hooked up with the creator of the universe.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Heb 11 puts it like this But without faith it is impossible to please Him. Without faith - flesh - death. Faith - Spirit - Life. Keep in mind a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. You can't serve two masters. Be either hot or cold, the lukewarm God will vomit up. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. In this verse you see a very distinct line. Either be in the flesh and don't have the Spirit, and be not of Christ's. Or be in the Spirit, having the Spirit of God dwelling in you. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Here again, if Christ is in you, your dead, the Spirit is your life.

I can only think of one verse were a person of God goes back to sin. And that verse says that there remains no more sacrifice for sin, being that you would have to crucify anew the Son of God and as we saw in Romans that only happens once. That being said do I believe you can fall from your salvation? No, not at all. But my brethren who are being misled as I once was will be overjoyed to find out sin is the seldom exception, and as far as the east is from the west the rule.

You really have not addressed my remark. The born again Spirit of a person cannot sin. It has no "sin" nature. Whenever we sin, we do it in the flesh not in the Spirit. I see that there is a need to daily reckon ourselves dead to sin, and to daily offer our bodies as a living sacrifice. Outside of salvation, there is no "one time" thing that we do as Christians. We need to daily keep that "death to sin" in front of our eyes. We need reminders. It is too easy to get distracted and get our eyes off on to something else.

Romans 6 is a chapter that is heavy on identification. We are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. I guess what I am unclear about is whether or not you are saying that a person who is born again should not, ever again, commit a single sin for the rest of their life. That is the only point I am unclear about. If you are talking about reptitive, habitual sins exclusively, then I agree with you for the most part.

[ElijahSK]

ElijahSK,

While what you say about the church extending charity to the less fortunate is absolutely true, it is not the main focus of these verses. We are not called to show charity to others merely to entice them into the church.

We are commanded by Jesus to service. It is firmly tied to our salvation.

Serving our neighbors does not automatically flow from the recitation of the sinners' prayer, as some would have you believe. Yes, it is an outpouring of our love of Christ. Yet, nevertheless, it is a dying to self that does not come easily to most of us. Giving of ourselves and of our "treasure" takes an act of selflessness....an act of the will......that often goes against our fleshly nature. It takes a surrender to the grace of God---Christ in us.

We are saved by grace thru faith, yep. But we MUST take that a step further and serve Jesus in the least of these........or perish in the eternal fire. Jesus' words, not mine.

Peace,

Fiosh

I would agree that our love is not to entice them into the church (body of church), but it is the commandment of God which we will follow if we are His. By so following His commandments we receive favor in the sight of God and man, and it goes to follow that they will be more than happy to join us in our faith as a byproduct of our love. So when you say it is tried firmly to our salvation, yes, as we have stated throughout the posts here. A believer is the one who trusts God and will do what He says. You can be no disciple of His if you don't do what He commands you. You are no sheep of His fold, if you don't follow Him.

About the recitation of the sinners' prayer. I don't know of any such prayer. In all my readings in the Bible I have not ran across any set prayers we are to follow. Even the Lord's prayer is not a prayer of repetition, but an example of how we are told to pray. Prayer is from the heart, not the letter. Maybe this was your point anyway, so I'll leave it at that.

As far as the fleshy nature, I must pose two questions here. Did Adam when he first sinned have this nature? If you say yes, then he was not made perfect and God should not have seen him as good. If you say no, then you must admit you don't need a fleshy nature to sin. Secondly, is it possible for someone to have two natures? Maybe so, but in any case this would lead to call that man double minded. This man be unstable in all his ways.

I would ask that you read what we have posted so far. It will answer much of what you have posted, and you would most definately leave with a greater understanding. I'll sum it up here in case you don't wish to read that much material. We see many things in the New Testament about this body of sin and death we had before we came to Christ. And what is the sum of it all? That old man has been crucified with Christ. Now you are dead, and Christ lives through you. Even as Christ died once and now lives unto God, reckon yourselves to have died with him and now are alive to God. We aren't called to will ourselves into submission. We are called to believe in the work of Christ, and in turn this will result in the overcoming of sin. I'm troubled that you say we are sanctified by grace through faith, but then you say we must take a step further and serve. My faith produces works because it is real. But I don't take steps to make these acts of servitude, they come naturally to me because I believe God. I would have you read these verses I am posting now.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh. <- That is by trying to keep ordaniances, and not simply reckoning or believeing in God's work.

As am I to believe that I am dead to sin and alive unto God? Just as Christ died once, I died once (not daily), and am now alive unto God? If you are of Christ, then His commandments are not burdensome to you as John says. Should we believe Paul in what he wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, or should we believe our own experience which if it be still in sin cannot please God at any rate? We must either accept the Bible for what it says, or deny it for what it says. All we do by adding to it is dishonor the word of God, and give others an opportunity to lose faith in it as being perfect already.

You really have not addressed my remark. The born again Spirit of a person cannot sin. It has no "sin" nature. Whenever we sin, we do it in the flesh not in the Spirit. I see that there is a need to daily reckon ourselves dead to sin, and to daily offer our bodies as a living sacrifice. Outside of salvation, there is no "one time" thing that we do as Christians. We need to daily keep that "death to sin" in front of our eyes. We need reminders. It is too easy to get distracted and get our eyes off on to something else.

Romans 6 is a chapter that is heavy on identification. We are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. I guess what I am unclear about is whether or not you are saying that a person who is born again should not, ever again, commit a single sin for the rest of their life. That is the only point I am unclear about. If you are talking about reptitive, habitual sins exclusively, then I agree with you for the most part.

First, maybe if you didn't read this in my post to Fiosh above this. There is no need for a "sin" nature to sin. Neither Adam or Eve were made with a sinful nature, yet both of them sinned. By their sin, they took their faith away from God and His word, and put it into the serpent. Thus they concluded all man in unbelief, and now you are not born into a world that will raise you in the knowledge of the truth of God, but in a world apostate from God in which there are some who keep some amount of faith in Him. I would exhort you to find out where you came up with the idea of a sinful nature. Because I have found in nowhere in scripture. Rather I find much evidence to the contrary in us. Let me post some scriptures so you may see what I am talking about.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

In these verses, first in Romans one thing becomes very evident. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, made his boast to his kinsman the Jews by telling them that what they couldn't do, we do by nature. So we see in Romans, that our nature is to fulfill the law of God, and in doing so we put the Jews to shame. This was a great tool for conversation Paul was using among the Jews in Rome that would come to read this letter. Because all of them acted the same way he use to and the way he states in Romans 7. But the gentiles and he now acted as he states in Romans 6 and 8 (notice he made it clear before and after what he said in Romans 7? Just to make sure it would not get confused for a believer). In Galatians, we see our nature is that of a true Jew. In Ephesians, we see that we were (past tense) by nature the children of wrath. That was "in times past". I would have you read it in context, that would help you see that we no longer have this nature. Well, I would hope you read them all in context, because it gives more weight to what he says each time. In Peter's letter he says might lest we should not bear fruit. He said "having escaped" (past tense) but he wanted to see them add several things to there current and past victory.

Romans 6 as you said is heavy on identification. If we want to be identified with Christ, lets comform to the mold so we can be seen in the like manner. The expectation of every believe should be to never sin again. This hope is rooted in the faith of the grace of what the Lord has done for us. Again I would say, when Abraham wavered concerning the promise of God, he produced Ishmael, naming him "God that hears" because he sought to establish in by his own will. When he remained in faith he received Isaac. So Ishmael is a picture of that which is born of the flesh or may I say of the flesh itself. Isaac is the son with promise, which he names laughter because it was so outlandish to think it possible Sarah laughed. He is a picture of faith and hope or may I say the Spirit dwelling in us. If you have Ishmael (the flesh) still, please do as Abraham did and banish him. He will do nothing but fight with Isaac (spirit), so you must make him go on his way, because God has told you that by Isaac your seed (your lineage) will be called. When God looked at the lineage (Isreal) in the old testament He did unto them according to the promises He made to there fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). He said Levi paid tithes to Melcheidek when he was not even born yet.

God told Abraham to go sacrifice his only begotten son. Basicly displaying that he would kill himself or sever his own line before he lost faith in God's promises coming true. But God ever keeping the Old Testament as a shadow of things to come, stopped him from completing the task. And when they looked into a nearby thicket, God had provided His own sacrifice. In such a manner, God calls you to faith. No matter if He tells you to sin no more, or love your neighbor, or he who I set free is free indeed, we must never allow ourselves to waver in the truth. We would sooner be burned at the stake, then lose faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. And faith is doing what He says. Thank the Lord that He gave us the sacrifice of Christ. He was the picture of the ram in that thicket. Instead of us giving up our very lives unto death (which may be the case sometimes), He gave up His own life for us. Instead of God when Adam sinned whiping away the human race from the earth, He set forth in His plan a way for us to return to the faith relationship that He once had with us.

So will I sin again? It is possible that I may unknowingly commit a sin, which I know the Lord has already paid for and I will thank Him for that. Will I even commit a sin that I know is in fact a sin? By God's grace I say, may it never be! God forbid! 1000x times over no! Not through any strength of my own, but because I know God will keep me unto the day of His return. And I tell you the true and it is no lie, Behold, the lamb of God cometh quickly! And He will reward every man according to His works. There is no excuse for those who have been set free from the bondage of sin, to continue living therein. May God multiply grace and peace and love in the truth to us all.

[ElijahSK]

Yes, you will. We are in the flesh and are subject to sinning everyday. The difference between a sinner and a Christian is that a sinner lives in his sin without out thought of repentance. A Christian is one who lives to obey the commandments of God and flee from sin.

I'm troubled by the fact that you will not understand. But at any rate I would try to reconcile our differences. You say I will commit sin again. I tell you I won't knowingly (not of my own strength but by God's grace). You may be in the flesh, but I am not. My flesh was crucified with Christ, and this life which I now live I live by the Spirit. You may get confort in saying that you are subject to sin everyday. But I will not be made it's subject again, though I be subject to temptations I overcome them by the faith which God has given me. That may be the difference between a sinner and a Christian to you, but I prefer to agree more with God than men. You see God tells us by Paul that we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, that is if the Spirit of God dwells in you. So does the Spirit of God dwell in you? I know He is in me, for he has set me free from all sin and given me faith and grace. What does John say is the difference between the son of God and the son of the devil? One cannot sin. One sins even as his father the devil has from the beginning. I'll be the one that cannot sin. I'll do everything in my power to not enter again into it, whether that means believing in the freedom God's given me, fleeing from it, or resisting it until it flees me. In the same manner you judge it shall be judged you, you I will say this you will sin again, but you don't have to, and I pray you will learn not to. As for me, that's not the road I want to go on.

1 Timothy 6:11-12 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

No where in this verse or context does he tell Timothy he is going to sin again. Rather he gives him more things to follow to keep him from ever having to find himself in that. I'm not sure how you meant it, but good verse nonetheless, and I'm sure Timothy listened.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Remember what a sin is:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We are no longer under the Old Law delivered by Moses, we are under the New Law delivered by Christ.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Here again in Romans 12:1-2, Paul telling them he implores them to present their bodies living and holy sacrifices, holy, acceptable to God. Why? Because this is your reasonable act of service. Since God has done so much for you, it's reasonable that you do that in return. He's not telling them their going to sin again, he's saying it's only reasonable for them not to. Be not conformed to this world. Don't act like them (ie don't sin). He is instructing them how to prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Why would he tell them how to accomplish it if it were not possible? Do you think he knew what he was talking about from experience and by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, or do you think he was venturing a guess?

I remember what sin is. Don't forget what it says in the next two verses. "5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him is no sin, 6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth notl whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." This passage isn't telling us we're still going to transgress the law, it's saying we'll establish and fulfill it by grace through faith in our wonderful Savior!

Why are we no longer under the law and what is the new law? By the law no flesh should be justified. The law came so that sin may become exceedingly sinful. The law came so that sin would increase. The law came to show us who our Messiah was. Only God Himself would be able to uphold it all without spot. You are not under that law, because if you were you should never be saved. The law had no faith; it had transgression and punishment. Now Christ has taken our punishment, and He paid our debt to the law. Why? Romans 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. A couple verses later he says to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal minded is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Paul showed how it couldn't be in chapter 7. The carnal mind would will to do good but couldn't perform it. It would not will to do one thing, but couldn't keep itself from it. This is the same thing he is referring to in verse 2. Context is key.

Reading in context, the verse before says overtaken in a fault. This phrase basicly means an unintentional side slip. Someone hurried into an error. Restore him in the spirit of meekness, considering your own self lest you be tempted (likely to happen to those who reprove without meekness). That being said, if my brother needs anything of me it is his. Our goal is to edify each other. To build up in knowledge, in truth, in the faith. If you have a momentary lapse, and I going to thrust you out? No, I'm going to strength you so it won't happen again and we'll both be strong. But if it is not just for a moment, my job would be to correct you, if you don't receive it, correct you with 2 or 3 people bearing witness. If you still don't receive it, then I am not suppose to consider you a brother. This is the way Jesus said to handle it. But yes, good verse, still it's the expection for the brother to have this fault and so be carrying the burden. It is most definately not the rule, and Paul is not telling us we will sin again, but rather someone may and when they do help them out of it so it doesn't have to keep happening.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Good list, before I give you my verse I'll quote your next two lines.

When I fail to obey any of these commandments or any other ones written in the New Testement I sin.

As Christians we will still sin. What makes a Christian a Christian is that they repent of their sins and strive onward.

Now I'd like to quote the verse 4 after the verses you quoted. Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. - By these two lines you posted here, your reasoning makes provision for the flesh. Provision is an act of making previous preparation. See when you sin, you'll say thank you God there is no condemnation (leaving out the end of the verse) I repent. That is acceptable to you. By your logic, you make allowance for sin. By God's logic which he delivered through Jesus and through Paul and through John, they make no allowance for sin. At no point in the New Testament, will you see them saying anything about repentance after one has salvation. Why you may ask? Because Jesus said, once your free your free indeed, and you can't serve two masters, so serve Me. Paul said, your old man is dead, now we live in the Spirit, that body of sin is destroyed, you're in the likeness of Christ's death and now you have newness of life, you can either sin and be a servant to sin, or obey and be a servant to righteousness, those that live by the Spirit have the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. John said if you sin you're the devil's son; if you are Christ's you won't sin. Peter said seeing that you have (past tense) purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit.... arm yourselves with the likeness of the same mind as Christ, for he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. Do you see how they didn't think of a "Christian" sinning? That would be a surprise. If you were to go talk to Jude, he'd ernestly contend with you for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Because He says it was a common salvation. It was common for everyone to thing you'd cease from sin. But what you're talking about is no where in scripture. There's a price to pay with salvation, but for a believer is it natural and it is no burden. For an unbeliever it is too great for him to become a disciple of Christ.

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

If you read the context, this verse is talking about being physically overtaken and people lying in wait for others. The just man will get thrown down or tripped but he'll keep going. The wicked falls and can not get up or gets injuried, harm comes to him. This is a far cry from a verse speaking about a new testament believer committing sin over and over.

God left us a way to help us to overcome this flesh and its temptations to give into sins.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We need the strength of the Godhead to help us to overcome our flesh that wants to sin. As long as I am striving to do my best and overcome this world by denying my flesh the desires of the flesh I stand righteous in the sight of God.

I think as you've already seen by now the illusion that you are still in the flesh is false. Either that or you really are in the flesh and not Christ's. When you strive, you fail. Striving isn't called for, reckoning is. Striving to overcome sin removes your focus from Christ and puts it on the sin and on yourself. Reckoning remembers that we have the victory, that God is ever wise in His ways, that it's better to have faith in God than have faith in the power of sin in your flesh. If you showed a dead man a $100 and told him not to steal it but you're going to leave it with him, when you got back I guarantee he won't have stolen it. If you put a showed him bad pictures, that dead man will not lust over them. If you punched that dead man in the face, he wouldn't hate you. That's why God killed us with Christ. He's not trying to fix us up so we can finally after 20 years maybe for a day do what he wants. He said you believe? good since you believe me let me test your faith, you're dead and now you're alive to me, still believe Me? But this is not the case for you. Even when God tells you that, you still run around like a chicken with it's head cut off. You say, yea you're right I'm dead. But you're still running all over the place. Surely, God is just waiting for us to be more convinced in His word.

As for the Hebrews verse, it is important to note it was written to Jews. And it was a letter written to convert and grow in the faith Jews everywhere. The first chapters go out proving Christ and He diety. The Jews did need to here that they were no longer under Ciaphas, and they could be forgiven. I wouldn't put it completely aside, because sure there may be that expection when you are just an outright disaster and when that temptation came you were battle worn and weary already and just gave in. But once again, in looking at the whole New Testament, time and time and time and time ad nausea they say it won't or shouldn't happen. And this time they give grace(one of maybe three). The expection, not the rule. And what can we find from the context? For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. It's not about striving, it's about resting. Life and peace.

Psalms 24:3-5 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Great verse.

Each time I sin as a Christian God has given us a way to take care of that:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I wouldn't have someone sin once and then leave God because of the one sin. What is the rule here? Why is he writing unto them? Sin not. What is the expection? If it happens don't worry, we have an advocate with the Father. This is were we get the law of liberty. But the law of liberty is not a license to sin. This is a crutch for the weak in faith and most likely the new believers. Not that there is anything wrong with being either of those, God loves them and I love them too. But our desire since we live in the Spirit is to do what He says here and sin not. Keeping in mind that the old man, the flesh is dead. Now we live in the Spirit and are a new creature. The flesh or old man can't be crucified twice, like Christ they died once and after that we live unto God. So now if we want to go about sinning it can't be that dead part, because you can see anything dead can't do anything. It's the new creature.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I don't say I don't have sin. I would have no need for the sacrifice of Christ if I had no sin. I say, I will go and sin no more, just like you told me to do. Thank you Jesus for that freedom from sin and death. Life is so much better away from them. Truly every good gift and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. And those gifts are free for the taking. Amen

Edited March 20, 2006 by ElijahSK

[Smalcald]

You may be in the flesh, but I am not. My flesh was crucified with Christ, and this life which I now live I live by the Spirit. You may get confort in saying that you are subject to sin everyday. But I will not be made it's subject again, though I be subject to temptations I overcome them by the faith which God has given me. That may be the difference between a sinner and a Christian to you, but I prefer to agree more with God than men.

Hi Elija,

What is sin? Is sin in the mind or in the actions, or in desires or all of those?

If you are tempted you are sinning. We are to be holy, as God is Holy, that is what we are called to do, and we will fail in that task living in this flesh on this earth. John very specifically tells us, that if we say we are without sin, we are a liar. The crux of the Christian walk is that even knowing that we will fail, still never give up and to realize that even when we succeed it is the Holy Spirit and not ourselves attempting with all our heart not to fail. I think it may be very dangerous to believe you are sin free, in that only repentance can heal us it may blind us to the deepest spiritual sin of all, pride.