Saved by faith.

[Dad Ernie]

You may be in the flesh, but I am not. My flesh was crucified with Christ, and this life which I now live I live by the Spirit. You may get confort in saying that you are subject to sin everyday. But I will not be made it's subject again, though I be subject to temptations I overcome them by the faith which God has given me. That may be the difference between a sinner and a Christian to you, but I prefer to agree more with God than men.

Jesus plainly tells us in the "Our Father's prayer" that we are to seek "forgivness for our debts (or sins)". Again John makes it clear that he who claims to be "without sin", is a liar and there is no truth in him. So I can't abide by Elija's understanding. One of the problems Adam and Eve had was to "hide" their sin and not confess it. Whereas King David when confronted with his sin readily confessed and was forgiven - but not without a price. Did Peter sin when he tried to impose Judaism's customs upon the gentiles? He was sternly rebuked by Paul. Are you better than Peter? Paul tells us in Romans that what he wanted to do, he did not, and what he did not want to do, that is what he did. He, of course, is referring to his "flesh". Until we are "changed to be like HIM", we have the problem with the flesh. We wear it every day, and we either willingly or unwillingly often indulge it. Then the Holy Spirit has to point out to us that what we did was sin - just as with King David.

What is sin? Is sin in the mind or in the actions, or in desires or all of those?

If you are tempted you are sinning. We are to be holy, as God is Holy, that is what we are called to do, and we will fail in that task living in this flesh on this earth. John very specifically tells us, that if we say we are without sin, we are a liar. The crux of the Christian walk is that even knowing that we will fail, still never give up and to realize that even when we succeed it is the Holy Spirit and not ourselves attempting with all our heart not to fail. I think it may be very dangerous to believe you are sin free, in that only repentance can heal us it may blind us to the deepest spiritual sin of all, pride.

Temptation is NOT a sin, but sin comes about when we act upon the temptation.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Smalcald]

Temptation is NOT a sin, but sin comes about when we act upon the temptation.

Hi dad Ernie,

I would say yes and no. What I mean by that is Christ tells us that if we look at a women with lust we have sinned, even though we have done no outward action at all, having a sinful feeling is the same as sinning, wanting to sin, is sin. However, I do know what you mean, we are faced with temptation and not giving in to that temptation in our mind OR in our actions is not sin. So acting on sin is also something we do in our mind, the act of thinking about wanting to sin is sin.

But overall I agree with your post.

[ElijahSK]

I am responding to these in chronological order. Not quite sure how to quote multiple people and it will save space to just talk on them.

cardcaptor, I said you were making allowance for sin because you weren't saying you were in the Spirit but in the flesh. We would be likeminded if you said that because you're in the Spirit you choose not to sin. And I never said I can't, I said I won't by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Smalcald, first, even as Dad Ernie said, temptation is not sin. James says, Blessed is he who endures temptation, for when he is tried he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. And count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations. A temptation is when your own lust draws you away and entices you, lust when it is conceived brings forth sin and sin, death. What's the answer then? Don't be drawn away. You and many others I see make this one err. This is not about being sin free, it is about being free from sin. If you've ever sinned your not without sin, that has no bearing on if you ever choose to sin again.

Dad Ernie, is the Lord's prayer meant to be a repatitious prayer? Are we suppose to repeat it all the time? Or is it an example of how we should pray? Showing humility and love for everyone. Always forgiving lest we not be forgiven. I don't know why you seek to slight me. All I am saying is by faith you can do what Jesus says and go and sin no more. And I have been free from sin since last month. But to you if I say this I am lying and hiding my sin. I should keep a little sin here and there so as David I could readily confess it. But I say David wouldn't of had the problem, if He had the Spirit in Him freeing him from those sins. At every sentence you seek to wound me, are we not brethren? Why was Peter rebuked? He was fearing the circumcision, so that he wouldn't live by the truth. But rather he tried to compromise with those Jews. What was Paul's point? We aren't justified by the law but by faith. Have you heard anything but that from me? Why do you ask are you better than Peter? Surely, we both have the same Spirit and we are equal, brothers (granted the Holy Spirit is not inspiring me with a letter that will be considered scripture). You use Paul's words in Romans 7. I don't know whether to laugh at you or cry about your state. What does Paul say in Romans 8? Therefore (what's the therefore there fore? to bring you into remembrance of what has already been said) there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. He goes on to say that what the law could not accomplish (what he is talking about in chapter 7) God accomplished by sending His own Son. See your problem here is you still believe sin has power over you. You'll do whatever you can to justify that belief even to the point of taking Romans 7 out of context to support your beliefs. Even after it had been so thoroughly written about in this thread. Read Romans 6 the chapter before it. Read Romans 8 the chapter after it. Paul makes sure one won't just read 7 and think that is a Christian. You, my friend, I'm sorry to say, do still live in the flesh. But there is deliverance, and you don't need to stay in it. Come to Jesus and God will crucify that flesh and then you'll live in the Spirit.

cardcaptor, at first when you used Romans 8:20 I was wondering why you were using a verse talking about animals to support yourself. But you have qualified your statements correctly. We do CHOOSE not to sin. If we don't CHOOSE not to sin, it's evident God has not CHOSEN us. As far as the rest of the verses you posted, I'm glad we finally agree.

Now since by so many of your posts I'm sure no one is actually reading this thread anymore, but just reading the last posts, I'd like to recap for them.

It is little argued that one is saved by faith. You would know what I mean by that. That by God's grace when we have faith we are saved. Does salvation require that we do X amount of things before we obtain it? The answer is no, we must believe God and that is the only way.

Now where most people and I part paths is when they say sancification is by works. I affirm that sancification is by faith. Anytime you will yourself to do something, you as a human will find you don't have the strength to make it happen. But when we are weak, then we are strong. I wouldn't tell this stuff to you guys if it had and does not work for me. I was like alot of "Christians" thinking I had to keep going on sinning, and when I get to heaven I'd finally be delivered. But God has given us a way out! For those of you who don't wish to give up your sin yet, you may find this thread is not for you. For those of you who have tried everything and nothing works, this is how to go and sin no more.

Don't strive against your sin. This is taking your eyes off Christ (your strength) and putting them on that sin. Rather reckon yourself to be dead to whatever that sin may be. A dead man will not lust, steal, murder, et al. Remember that once you are Christ's your old man is crucified and now he has no hold over you. To live now is by the Spirit and is life and peace.

Most people will disagree because they have not experienced it. But for you, my brother who is trying to cease sinning, entertain no such thought. Did Abraham know by experience he have a child? No, he considered himself dead. But when God said it, he believed it. Did Abraham have any knowledge of the land promised him when he went? No, but when God promised it to him he believed and went out not knowing where he was going. Did Isaac know what would become of Jacob and Esau by experience? No, but by faith he blessed them about things to come. The Bible is full of examples like these. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. You don't have faith once you see it accomplished. You have faith once you hear it in God's word. Then when you hold that faith, you'll receive a good report.

In conclusion, that faith is how we receive our salvation. We trust that since God has said if we believe we'll be saved, He'll fulfill His promise. In the same manner, sancification is by faith. We trust that since God said, those who I make free are free indeed, He's fulfilled His promise. Read Romans 6-8, Gal 3, 1 John 3, John 6 and see what great gift the Lord has given us. That we don't have to get saved, wait 20 years to be sancified, then to bondage of sin is broken. But rather He saves you and breaks the bondage of sin all in the same act. So that once you're saved you may live to Him.

Thank you Lord for deliverance. Though the world may never believe it is possible, I will stay true to Your word. Amen

[Smalcald]

Two things.

I agree with you that Christians are given power by the Holy Spirit to resist sin, and in fact when we are born again we are given that power to began to struggle against sin, and throughout our lives this struggle is waged, and indeed being dead to sin is our goal. People with faith in Christ will assure themselves of this faith by the change in their lives, they will sin less, and they will want to serve and please God and part of that is following His commandments.

However, Christ Himself said that sin begins in the heart and in the mind, not just in our outward actions. Giving in to temptation is entertaining any thought in our mind, which is sinful. I think we all do that, we are born into sin and we can do nothing to free ourselves, we will NEVER be sin free in this life, that is against scripture, we all need repentance. John said that anyone who claimed they did not sin was a liar.

If you've ever sinned your not without sin, that has no bearing on if you ever choose to sin again.

Why did John say then that Jesus Christ would be our advocate if we sinned? Why would John say that a Christian would need that? Do we not need Christ anymore? Christ was the ONLY human ever to lead a sin free life, then and now.

Now, I will attempt with the best of my heart and my mind and my being to not sin again, the fact is however being human I will sin again, but I will not live in sin, as Paul says those who "practice" such things will not inherit the Kingdom. It is the path and trajectory of our lives. But if you start believing you are sinless, you will not seek repentance, and in fact this can be a very dangerous place spiritually, it is the ultimate pride, to make oneself equal with Christ to claim that the Holy Spirit has made you sin free in this earth and thus there is no need for Christ's sacrifice.

In fact God sees us as wretched, the only reason we are saved is that He sees His Son pleading for us, outside of that even the most Holy seeming Person will burn in Hell.

[ElijahSK]

Smalcald, it is obviously since we have posted the same arguments that we probably won't be reconciled. May we please, not continue in a vicious cycle. I'm responding because I hope that you will be set free from sin as I have now experienced. But please, after this let's not try to destroy each other's faith. I assure you, I will not be convinced that I will sin again until it is accomplished. It is against my faith in the word of God, but if or when it happens I will go to Christ for forgiveness.

Now to touch on many things written by yourself in your post.

However, Christ Himself said that sin begins in the heart and in the mind, not just in our outward actions. Giving in to temptation is entertaining any thought in our mind, which is sinful. I think we all do that, we are born into sin and we can do nothing to free ourselves, we will NEVER be sin free in this life, that is against scripture, we all need repentance. John said that anyone who claimed they did not sin was a liar.

Christ told us how sin starts. Yes. I completely agree, sin is in the heart. But isn't it true that God took out of us the heart of stone and gave us a new heart? What does Paul say about the weapons of our warfare? Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. Wait a second Paul (by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit)! Are you saying that our weapons are so mighty through God that they pull down strongholds even to the point of taking every thought captive? I assure you he is. You should be a teacher by now, but I have need again to teach you the elementary principles. You say you're born into sin. God says that when you came to Christ you're a new creature not subject to those former things. Rather your now dead to what you use to be. We can do nothing to free ourselves. True, but he who the Son sets free is free indeed! Thank you Lord! We will never be sin free in this life. True, if you have ever sinned you're not sin free, and all HAVE (past tense) sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not all will again, but all have. You quote John again, even the same verse, when there was no dispute on it. All you are doing it declaring that you don't understand what I am talking about.

Why did John say then that Jesus Christ would be our advocate if we sinned? Why would John say that a Christian would need that? Do we not need Christ anymore? Christ was the ONLY human ever to lead a sin free life, then and now.

Well, I would say that is so when you accidental stumble you don't just leave the faith. Can you imagine this... Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter all taught the "Christians" not to sin anymore. Some (the expection not the rule) did sin again. Did they want anyone who ever sinned after receiving Christ to leave because he was weak in faith? No, they restored such a brother. But that wasn't for continual sin, but for the occasional, accidental slip.

But if you start believing you are sinless, you will not seek repentance, and in fact this can be a very dangerous place spiritually, it is the ultimate pride, to make oneself equal with Christ to claim that the Holy Spirit has made you sin free in this earth and thus there is no need for Christ's sacrifice.

First, it's a laughable point. No one could claim sinlessness but Christ. You simply will not understand that freedom from sin is by faith is Christ. It's not a prideful statement to say you will not sin again, it's a statement of your faith in God's work to keep you. I'm beginning to understand with every post why the church has so many problems with sin. They think it's prideful to not do it anymore. No longer is it a foundational truth, but it's a heresy of the fifth order. I don't say this to be hard, but I am sorrowful that my brothers are lead astray by so blatant a lie.

In fact God sees us as wretched, the only reason we are saved is that He sees His Son pleading for us, outside of that even the most Holy seeming Person will burn in Hell.

God sees us as wretched because we have fallen short of His mark. That is perfection. You can never take anything back, it is written. If any person among you seems to be religion, and bridleth not his own tongue, but deceiveth himself, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. To KEEP himself unspotted from the world? Or to try, and hope, and wish, and fight that even though you have more spots than a dalmation after this life you'll be unspotted?

I have but one last question. If the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; how shall we espace, if we neglect so great a salvation; which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

I strive to answer your posts line upon line. So that every thought of doubt you may have may already be answered. I'd accept what you say, but it is not in my Bible. My Bible never contradicts and everything in it much either by believed or blotted out. I can't use John to talk against Paul. I can't use Paul to talk against Christ. Please, if you want to answer back, do me one favor and your post will be a help to me and all those who read it. Make sure what you believe is scriptural. And read the context of your scriptures before posting. And if I may even go as far as to say, if you don't understand my point ask how I can come to that conclusion, rather than making the same argument. I've made sure my arguments are woven in a web of scripture. If you would listen to me like a brother, even as I am trying to speak to you, I think you would understand it a little better.

[Smalcald]

Well, I would say that is so when you accidental stumble you don't just leave the faith. Can you imagine this... Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter all taught the "Christians" not to sin anymore. Some (the expection not the rule) did sin again. Did they want anyone who ever sinned after receiving Christ to leave because he was weak in faith? No, they restored such a brother. But that wasn't for continual sin, but for the occasional, accidental slip.

What is the difference between an accidental slip, and sin? Is there a special category of "accidental slip sin", versus the other kind of sin? No there is not, at least not scriptural, sin is sin, if you accidentally slip you sin and that one sin is enough to throw you into hell forever, period. God sees all sin the same, thus our need for repentance and Christ, and our need for continual repellence. The problem with your concept which is not biblical is that it indeed leads people away from restoration, you say you have no need to continue the struggle against your flesh, but you do, the problem in the Church comes from STOPPING the struggle, not saying that we are without sin. Just because I admit that I am a poor sinner, worthless in the eyes of the Lord does not mean I condone or accept sin, nor should we ever, but we must know our place, thank God for Jesus our Lord and Savior who wipes away all sin we have and will have.

I encourage you on your walk, but even your last post shows elements of pride in your own behavior, do you think you are less sinful than other human beings, than other Christians? You see this is the danger of believing the lie of a sinless life with no need of repentance.

I do agree though that if we continue to walk in sin, if we practice those things, if that is our life, then indeed we do not have faith in Christ and will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but we still sin, we all still slip if you would rather think of it that way.

What did Christ say to the rich young man, what did Christ say that he must do to be perfect? I am assuming you have done that.

[ElijahSK]

What is the difference between an accidental slip, and sin? Is there a special category of "accidental slip sin", versus the other kind of sin? No there is not, at least not scriptural, sin is sin, if you accidentally slip you sin and that one sin is enough to throw you into hell forever, period. God sees all sin the same, thus our need for repentance and Christ, and our need for continual repellence. The problem with your concept which is not biblical is that it indeed leads people away from restoration, you say you have no need to continue the struggle against your flesh, but you do, the problem in the Church comes from STOPPING the struggle, not saying that we are without sin. Just because I admit that I am a poor sinner, worthless in the eyes of the Lord does not mean I condone or accept sin, nor should we ever, but we must know our place, thank God for Jesus our Lord and Savior who wipes away all sin we have and will have.

I encourage you on your walk, but even your last post shows elements of pride in your own behavior, do you think you are less sinful than other human beings, than other Christians? You see this is the danger of believing the lie of a sinless life with no need of repentance.

I do agree though that if we continue to walk in sin, if we practice those things, if that is our life, then indeed we do not have faith in Christ and will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but we still sin, we all still slip if you would rather think of it that way.

What did Christ say to the rich young man, what did Christ say that he must do to be perfect? I am assuming you have done that.

The accidental slip is being overtaken in a sin. Shortly after I came to believe all of this, I was still weak in respects to faith. I was feeling destitute. I felt I had no control over worry. Between 35k in medical bills from a recent wreck, relationships that I could not keep up with, a job that I felt I was close to losing because I had no money to go to the doctor and get an excuse, a month of eating maybe once every three days if not a week, a collar bone that just wouldn't heal which would keep me from working and being able to have some hope in my own abilities, 4 broken bones in my hip that kept me from just walking away, and the list goes on. It was at that time when worry overcame me and I slipped. After the fact, I learned that that is the time that faith carries the biggest reward.

Now the difference between that slip and sin is this. Sin progresses. Once you let is have a foothold, it'll climb right onto your back and won't let go. Jesus tells us that if a brother is caught in a sin to rebuke him. If he doesn't accept, rebuke him with 2 or 3 others. If he still won't repent toward God (to turn away from that sin and follow after God), then we are to teach that brother in sin like we would a heathen.

Whereas a slip is a one time thing reminding us why we need Christ so much that we so know it's error when it happens we won't return to it. A sin is not a mistake you make once and it doesn't happen again (although I'm not saying that is not a sin, just not the one in context Galatians is talking about). A sin is something you do every day, every week, every however long. You are a servant to it. When it comes to you and tempts you, you engage in its pleasure. You are only sorrowful after that now you're evidentally in bondage again.

I will take pride in my behavior. That is to say, I am proud of God's work in me. For I do not accomplish this feets in my own will, but Christ works in me to will and do of His good pleasure. I can know that because for me to live is Christ, and this life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith in the Son of God. So I will be prideful in that my Lord has overcome everything in me that I use to so struggle with. This isn't to draw praise to me. This is to draw praise to God who can do the same thing in each one of us if we weren't so stubborn. I am not saying your stubborn, but rather the person who hears God say, you're dead, you're alive to me, he who is dead is free from sin, he who I make free is free indeed, you're crucified with Christ so that your body of sin might be destroyed and you live to me, the law of the Spirit of life sets you free from the law of sin and death, if you be in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, those who are born of Me cannot commit sin. And no matter what he says over and over and over the stubborn person says but I don't feel that. But I don't experience that. That's my goal, but its not done already. But the only thing God has ever called for was for us to hear Him and believe Him. So I haven't experienced that, but you're right God, so I'll live by it from here on out. You tell me I'm dead, so I am persuaded of that, I embrace that, and I confess I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. God, I believe when you said now I live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. And since you believe it, I mean believe it as truth and some story, you'll act on your beliefs and be free from sin. Not of your own work, your work is to labor to enter into God's rest. Rather God's work by crucifying you to make you free to make you in the likeness of His Son.

What did Christ say to the rich young man, what did Christ say that he must do to be perfect? I am assuming you have done that.

Slamcald, why do you seek to wound me? Why do you try to find opportunity to offend me? Are we not brothers? Yet, you'll backhand me like this. I can't help, but feel slighted by this comment. What more would you have me give? I have 3 basicly three changes of clothes, some blankets, and this computer. I don't sell the computer because it is my tool for studying. I use it as a cd player, I keep tons of sermons on it. It's communication with brethren. My conscience does not accuse me for keeping it. As for my blankets and clothes, they can be anyones who has a need for them, but my conscience doesn't accuse me of this either. You can't ask anyone around me, so I will tell you myself. My policy on money is if I have it, and your in need, ask and you shall receive, thank God when you do. I was so lax with the principle I ignored other principles in God's word. Let own no man anything. So sure, I got 13,000 dollars in debt buying other people cars when they needed, meals, clothes, paying their rent, improving their quality of living however I could. when it was between one of my brethren getting evicted for not paying rent timely, and me paying a ticket so I wouldn't lose my license, I chose to help him out. Do I care about any of this? No, I take no thought for this world. Everything I have is another opportunity to receive a heavenly reward. My problem was never with that principle, it was with how to stop sinning. Which was the topic, before this was brought up. Now that it is, what have I learned from my experiences? First, owe no man anything. I'll pay off my bills first and let others carry their burdens in the mean time(not saying I wouldn't give if they were in great need, but I would be able to help them better if I got on my feet and could give them a bigger hand). Second, once debt free, go directly back to helping the brethren out. Our desire should be to be equal with all our brethren. We are all going to the same place. And if we withhold blessing from them here, blessing will be withheld from us there. And they'll still be blessed exceedingly for believing God though we didn't act as we ought.

Truly, you will get the most peace in life if you take no thought for it. When you stop thinking about what you are to eat, drink, wear, where your to live, God still directs your steps. And even though you never thought about accomplishing it, you still manage to eat, drink, wear something, live somewhere. My beliefs growing up were always juxaposed to most people. I had to learn that unless you hate your mother, father, sister, brother, and friends you can't follow Christ. That is that in comparision to your love for Him your yielding to His word, your love for them is small. You would much rather disobey them or disagree with what they say, before you'd ever do that toward Him.

At any rate, none of this is to my glory. I am nothing but a former slave to sin, set free by Christ Jesus. I am sure that my God shows no favoritism and respects no man's person. So what He has accomplished in me, He can also accomplish in you. And that is the only reason why I let it be known. Because if I told you this to receive glory from you, my reward in heaven is gone. But I don't tell this for glory to myself but to God, and He knows the intention of the heart.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

[Guest shiloh357]

OK Elijah I am going to try this again, since you didn't catch where I was going in my last response. I will be a bit more direct. Are you teaching that true Christians should not sin ever again, even once? Are you teaching that the Scriptures demand absolute sinless perfection from Christians???

[Guest Timothy 316]

Hi, I just want to say I believe, though you speak of freedom, you are in deep bondage. Jesus fulfilled the law. I am no longer under the law, the law is written on my heart. If (and when) I sin, I have an advocate with the Father. I am free, but because I am born from above. The only law I must obey is to love God and my neighbor. I do that by receiving His abundant love and forgiveness. Read Galatians people of the circumcision! I don't use my freedom as a license to sin. But the firghtening (for you) truth is I am free to do anything! Do I believe it's ok to drink alcohol? NO! sex outside of marriage? NO! I believe i am in Christ and I want fellowship every day with Him and I can't fellowship with sin and with Him. But when I do sin, and I believe every man and woman sins, at least in mental attitude, every day, I know it's all paid for at the cross. I truly am free of having to watch every step I take wondering where I might fall again. Instead I am occupied with who Jesus is and what He has done for me.. Just let God love you and watch temtations slip away, instead of watching how good or bad ur doin.

[ElijahSK]

OK Elijah I am going to try this again, since you didn't catch where I was going in my last response. I will be a bit more direct. Are you teaching that true Christians should not sin ever again, even once? Are you teaching that the Scriptures demand absolute sinless perfection from Christians???

Sorry about that. I would say yes, a true Christian should never sin again. Should being the operative word there. It need not be the case, and you'll find life and peace apart from sin. As far as scripture demanding absolute sinlessness, no. I am trying to emphasize that you never have to sin again, but it is still possible. And if it were to occur don't loss faith, we have an advocate. Christ came to forgive us our sins, now it is our reasonable service to live our lives holy in a way that is acceptable to Him.

So I am not teaching a Christian must be absolutely sinless after they are saved, but just that it is possible and should at all times be a hope of a Christian. Keeping in mind that that hope may only be accomplished by the grace of God through faith in His work. Now that we are in Christ, we live in three things, faith, hope, and love. Love will forgive as well as keep you from sin. Faith will sancify you. Hope will make you keep that faith and love until the end.