Suicide

[50_Cent's_dog]

Lady C,

I am certainly interested in what Openly Curious has to say in response to your question, but it is my opinion that it comes down to the issue of wilful sin vs a sin someone is unaware of. For instance, it is possible that I might have unforgiveness towards someone and don't realize it. That is not a wilful sin. Then one day, God brings it to my attention. Now I am responsible to do something about it. If I refuse to confess that sin, and let the bitterness go, now my sin has become wilful rebellion, and if I died, I would wind up in hell. It is not that it is an unpardonable sin. The only reason it would cost me my soul, is because I did nothing about it. Jesus said if we refuse to forgive others when they tresspass against us, then he won't forgive our sins. That is pretty plain. Obviously I don't believe The OSAS doctrine.

Obviously I believe in the OSAS doctrine. That is why I love Jesus so much. That is why I want fellowship with Him. How can someone with your theology love Jesus? He might send you to hell because you messed up along the way. Aren't you scared of being rejected in the future.

I have heard your arguements before so you don't have to give me all the scripture to back up what you are saying because I have scripture that is in my favor. What I am saying is that Jesus died for a relationship with me. I believe that I am saved forever. For that reason I love Him and want to walk the straight and narrow. I want fellowship with God by being obedient. It seems that you might love God but are so afraid of going to hell. That might be your motivation for walking the straight and narrow. Those who reject OSAS.

i really didn't want this to get off topic onto the OSAS argument, but i have to say something here... i think it's very foolish to question how anyone who does not believe in OSAS could possibly love Jesus. i do not agree with the OSAS theory, because it doesn't line up with the totality of scripture. i don't fear my salvation because i know the only way a christian can become "unsaved" so to speak is to WILLFULLY kick God out of their life. salvation isn't lost in that instance, nor is it stolen... it's rejected. not only do i have no reason to fear losing my salvation, it gives me assurance and comfort to know that it can only be forfieted by choice. i can assure you, i love Jesus as much as you do.

that being said, my curiousity of how OSAS'ers felt regarding whether suicide could result in a christian being kicked out of heaven was to see if OSAS'ers contradicted themselves by believing a christian who commits suicide would go to hell. personally i do not believe in OSAS, NOR do i believe a person who commits suicide after knowing Jesus has willfully chosen to forfiet their salvation. if a person believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, sent to earth fully man and fully God, and sacrificed His physical life to pay for our sins, and rose again three days later to live ever more at the right hand of God, then i will see that person in heaven one day. suicide doesn't necessarily mean that a person stops believing God is Lord.

and since as some have pointed out, most suicides are caused by deep despair which is a form of mental illness, then i don't believe that premeditation should automatically be labeled of the person. if that's the case, then the law of the land is more compassionate than God, and that just does not compute.

LadyC,

What I meant is, how can you love God if you don't know that you are going to spend eternity with Him? I am not saying that you people don't love God. If I wasn't sure of my salvation I would seriously hope that God is only man's imagination. It is because of my assurance of my salvation that I love God. Why would I love God if He was constantly threatening to send me to Hell? As Butero believes. He has no assurance of salvation. I love you brother! I have the blessed assurance as you do Lady C. I hope that Butero will have it too someday. I would just be scared if I had that theology. No Peace.

[Openly Curious]

This is what I believe on the matter. I believe when we get saved, all past sins are under the blood. I also believe any sins we commit through ignorance from that day forward are under the blood. I do not believe pre-meditated wilful sins are automatically covered by the blood. In the Old Testament God mentioned that there were animal sacrifices for the atonement of various sins done in ignorace. When speeking of wilful or presumptuous sins, he said such a person would be cut off from his people. In Romans, the Bible says that when we sin wilfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for that sin. It doesn't say we cannot ask forgiveness and receive it, but the blood that saved us doesn't cover unconfessed wilful sins. That is why I believe if a person commits suicide, whether they be a Christian or not, they will wind up in hell. I also believe if a person commits murder and dies without having confessed his or her sin, whether they be a Christian or not, they will go to hell. On the other hand, if they simply get angry and say something they shouldn't have, they would not go to hell. It was not a pre-meditated sin. Once God brings the sin to their attention, at that point they must confess it.

Hey Butero,

Your theology just sounds hard to me. It is like you need a spiritual calculator to figuer out what sins God accepts and what sins God will not forgive you of. It just sounds really stressful to me. For me I believe that when Jesus died on the cross He died for all of my sins past, present and future. He forgave me when I received Jesus as Lord and Saviour 10 years ago by faith alone. Now I just have to worry about my fellowship with him. I don't worry about going to Hell anymore but being pleasing to God. Remaining in the Vine and bearing fruit. Again the fruit doesn't save but faith alone does.

Hello,

I know that this was meant for Butero,

But why do you need to worry about your fellowship?

Do you think that something can actually break that fellowship between you and Him?

If so, what is it that could break that fellowship between you and God?

Could it be the same thing that seperated you in the past before you got saved and restored to right fellowship with God?

Why did God say, he giveth more grace if one got it all at the time of salvation?

Why would we need him for if we already got everything we need from him?

Or why did he instruct us in his word to confess our faults to one another so one could be restored that was overtaken in a fault Galatian 6:1-2 ?

Could it perhaps be our present or future sins that we have not commited yet in this lifetime of ours be those things you are worrying about that will alienate or seperate you from God just in the same way your past sins alienated you from God in the which you had no fellowship until you confessed your sins that held you captive?

Could it not be the same with unconfessed sins we will yet commit in the present and future that will alienate us from God once again?

Does God allow or accept any sins of any kind?

Or, does God have pet sins in which one can engage in and He will overlook it if we choose those to commit?

Or, is all sins past, present and future tense offensive to God that we have in the past commited?

And in those moments of weaknesses when we will yet fall into sin and are overtaken by Satan again and are entangled again in bondage of sin whether it be in the present moment or in the moment of the future will not God yet again deliver us from bondage once again?

Or, do we need more grace?

You have been born again and know one can receive grace for their past sins so why would you not have yet the more faith to believe he could help you again if you were entangled again in a fault or sin in the future?

Again isn't it unconfessed sins we fall into that alienates us from God leaving us with no hope of eternal life?

If not why do you have worry over breaking your fellowship with God?

Openly Curious

Edited March 22, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

Lady C,

I am certainly interested in what Openly Curious has to say in response to your question, but it is my opinion that it comes down to the issue of wilful sin vs a sin someone is unaware of. For instance, it is possible that I might have unforgiveness towards someone and don't realize it. That is not a wilful sin. Then one day, God brings it to my attention. Now I am responsible to do something about it. If I refuse to confess that sin, and let the bitterness go, now my sin has become wilful rebellion, and if I died, I would wind up in hell. It is not that it is an unpardonable sin. The only reason it would cost me my soul, is because I did nothing about it. Jesus said if we refuse to forgive others when they tresspass against us, then he won't forgive our sins. That is pretty plain. Obviously I don't believe The OSAS doctrine.

Obviously I believe in the OSAS doctrine. That is why I love Jesus so much. That is why I want fellowship with Him. How can someone with your theology love Jesus? He might send you to hell because you messed up along the way. Aren't you scared of being rejected in the future.

I have heard your arguements before so you don't have to give me all the scripture to back up what you are saying because I have scripture that is in my favor. What I am saying is that Jesus died for a relationship with me. I believe that I am saved forever. For that reason I love Him and want to walk the straight and narrow. I want fellowship with God by being obedient. It seems that you might love God but are so afraid of going to hell. That might be your motivation for walking the straight and narrow. Those who reject OSAS.

i really didn't want this to get off topic onto the OSAS argument, but i have to say something here... i think it's very foolish to question how anyone who does not believe in OSAS could possibly love Jesus. i do not agree with the OSAS theory, because it doesn't line up with the totality of scripture. i don't fear my salvation because i know the only way a christian can become "unsaved" so to speak is to WILLFULLY kick God out of their life. salvation isn't lost in that instance, nor is it stolen... it's rejected. not only do i have no reason to fear losing my salvation, it gives me assurance and comfort to know that it can only be forfieted by choice. i can assure you, i love Jesus as much as you do.

that being said, my curiousity of how OSAS'ers felt regarding whether suicide could result in a christian being kicked out of heaven was to see if OSAS'ers contradicted themselves by believing a christian who commits suicide would go to hell. personally i do not believe in OSAS, NOR do i believe a person who commits suicide after knowing Jesus has willfully chosen to forfiet their salvation. if a person believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, sent to earth fully man and fully God, and sacrificed His physical life to pay for our sins, and rose again three days later to live ever more at the right hand of God, then i will see that person in heaven one day. suicide doesn't necessarily mean that a person stops believing God is Lord.

and since as some have pointed out, most suicides are caused by deep despair which is a form of mental illness, then i don't believe that premeditation should automatically be labeled of the person. if that's the case, then the law of the land is more compassionate than God, and that just does not compute.

LadyC,

What I meant is, how can you love God if you don't know that you are going to spend eternity with Him? I am not saying that you people don't love God. If I wasn't sure of my salvation I would seriously hope that God is only man's imagination. It is because of my assurance of my salvation that I love God. Why would I love God if He was constantly threatening to send me to Hell? As Butero believes. He has no assurance of salvation. I love you brother! I have the blessed assurance as you do Lady C. I hope that Butero will have it too someday. I would just be scared if I had that theology. No Peace.

Hello LadyC,

I know that this was meant for Butero but I was in this thread anyway so I'll put my two cents in anyway. Hope you are doing well today.

Jesus said if ye love me keep my commandments How do you love God?

What is that assurance that you speak of?

What is it based on?

Is it not breaking the laws of God that condemns a person soul?

Is it not the will of God we are to walk in obedience to keeping his commandments?

Isn't it our disobedience that God is so displeased with that angers Him and seperates man from Him?

Is there peace in sin?

Will one have peace if they don't confess the faults they are overtaken in?

Openly Curious

[nebula]

What am I trying to say?

What I am trying to say is that someone in such bondage as to want to kill themselves, to say, "If you kill yourself you will go to Hell," you are just putting more bondage on them.

And you are leaving them in their desperate state.

If you want to save someone, you need to go after the roots of the problem.

Part of that can be getting their focus off of themselves.

For years - all through high school and college and my 20's - I thought my struggles were unique and that all I had to do was push down th e bad feelings and try to focus on things that will lift my spirits.

But when hard times hit - flop!

It was an endless cycle I couldn't get out of.

Once I finally discovered that I had a chronic depression problem, I was able to refocus my method of attack. My problem wasn't emotions - it was whole mindset.

God has on more than one time healed some major depressive episodes I had - and it came more often through the "laying on of hands" and prayers with prophesying that broke the episode. (And that is how you get someone to stop wanting to kill themselves!!!)

But the chronic depression part - He is making me walk out of step by step. And it makes sense, because I have layers to deal with, new ways of dealing with problems to figure out (like anger), and stuff like that.

That is what I'm trying to convey.

[Guest Gladiator4God]

to me personally if that person was saved ,then say no more ,jesus will have his arms wide open.

Because in jesus we are set free.

if we use this theory why dont we all get saved then off ourselves and go to heaven.....

[Openly Curious]

What am I trying to say?

nebula

What I am trying to say is that someone in such bondage as to want to kill themselves, to say, "If you kill yourself you will go to Hell," you are just putting more bondage on them.

OC

The term you used was more "bondage" on them. Are you actually implying here to us that the person was already in "bondage" before they sought help. What bible difinition do you give to the word "bondage"?

nebula

And you are leaving them in their desperate state.

If you want to save someone, you need to go after the roots of the problem.

OC

What would you say is the root of the problem of "bondage"? Is there one?

nebula

Part of that can be getting their focus off of themselves.

OC

How would you suggest one going about doing that?

nebula

For years - all through high school and college and my 20's - I thought my struggles were unique and that all I had to do was push down th e bad feelings and try to focus on things that will lift my spirits.

OC

If someone gives biblical advice for you to take your thoughts captive and think on things that are good lovely and a just report that is Godly advice from God's word. That is not wrong of another christian to tell you. Even though you may have medical conditions that they are unaware of at the time.

nebula

But when hard times hit - flop!

It was an endless cycle I couldn't get out of.

Once I finally discovered that I had a chronic depression problem, I was able to refocus my method of attack. My problem wasn't emotions - it was whole mindset.

OC

So keeping your focus right was your answer. Well did God change any of those deep and dark emotions that is associated with this type thing. I mean did your joy increase, was you a little more happier, smile more, or did nothing emotionally change with in the refocusing attack plan of yours.

How did you change your whole mindset? What methods would you counsel others in changing their whole mindset and getting proper focus?

nebula

God has on more than one time healed some major depressive episodes I had - and it came more often through the "laying on of hands" and prayers with prophesying that broke the episode. (And that is how you get someone to stop wanting to kill themselves!!!)

OC

So it was through praying, prophesying, and the laying on of hands that healed several of these episodes you had. And that is how you get people to not commit suicide. Would this be the prescribed course in your counsel to others. I mean how did this get to the "root" of the problem.

nebula

But the chronic depression part - He is making me walk out of step by step. And it makes sense, because I have layers to deal with, new ways of dealing with problems to figure out (like anger), and stuff like that.

That is what I'm trying to convey.

OC

In finding new ways of dealing with your problems including the emotion of anger. Does the instructions given in the bible to all believers help you at all I mean do scriptures not help in showing you ways to deal with things. And if so can you give me an example how scripture helps you cope with chronic depression. What would be your advice to others pertaining to the help that is found in scriptures.

Openly Curious

Edited March 22, 2006 by Openly Curious

[John3;16]

If you are considering committing suicide than you are not giving a reason for the hope that is within you, and you are not running the race that is set before you. It is a sign of lack of faith to throw in the towel, life is hard and being a Christian does not remove trials, but it does give us assurance of the One who will never leave us or forsake us, when we go through the valleys or are faced with what appears to be overwhelming circumstances, that is when we need to turn to the Lord for our help and salvation, that is when the Lord is nearest, but we need to ask him for deliverance, He may not change the circumstances but he will strengthen you so that you will be able to bear it. Scripture tells us that a righteous man falls seven time but rises eight, and that goes along with the question asked in scripture: what will separate us from the love of God? And the answer is there is nothing. But when you stand before the Lord what would you rather hear, well done thou good and faithful servant, or have the knowledge that you lost rewards that are eternal. That is why Jesus told us to lay up treasures in heaven, not on earth where rust and moth erodes them. Another thing that happens when someone commits suicide is that they are not allowing the Lord to form them in the image of His Son which is done through suffering and enduring difficult situations. The Apostle Paul stated to die is gain but to live is Christ, He longed to be with Christ but he also wanted to please the Lord, and that is why he ran the race and finished the course that was set before Him. It is also written in scripture that the sufferings that we endure here is not worthy of the rewards that we will receive. Also suicide is a selfish act and causes pain and grief to those that are closest to you. There is help available for those who are in deep depression, which in some people is caused by a chemical imbalance, or low serotonin level. Counsel is also based on scriptural principles. There are many examples of those who went before us and were martyred or endured persecution and even in these times there are many who are suffering for the cause of Christ. Not that you need to be torn by lions or burned at the stake to know persecution, there are more subtle forms of it, the bible also assures us that we will have tribulations in this world, but we also can have peace because the Lord is with us. We have three enemies in this world the devil, our flesh, and the world, but we must keep in mind that the war is not fought with flesh, but with principalities of darkness, it is a spiritual war and that is why we must fight it with the weapons that the Spirit provides us with, such as prayer and faith, and put on the whole armor of God.

[Openly Curious]

If you are considering committing suicide than you are not giving a reason for the hope that is within you, and you are not running the race that is set before you. It is a sign of lack of faith to throw in the towel, life is hard and being a Christian does not remove trials, but it does give us assurance of the One who will never leave us or forsake us, when we go through the valleys or are faced with what appears to be overwhelming circumstances, that is when we need to turn to the Lord for our help and salvation, that is when the Lord is nearest, but we need to ask him for deliverance, He may not change the circumstances but he will strengthen you so that you will be able to bear it. Scripture tells us that a righteous man falls seven time but rises eight, and that goes along with the question asked in scripture: what will separate us from the love of God? And the answer is there is nothing. But when you stand before the Lord what would you rather hear, well done thou good and faithful servant, or have the knowledge that you lost rewards that are eternal. That is why Jesus told us to lay up treasures in heaven, not on earth where rust and moth erodes them. Another thing that happens when someone commits suicide is that they are not allowing the Lord to form them in the image of His Son which is done through suffering and enduring difficult situations. The Apostle Paul stated to die is gain but to live is Christ, He longed to be with Christ but he also wanted to please the Lord, and that is why he ran the race and finished the course that was set before Him. It is also written in scripture that the sufferings that we endure here is not worthy of the rewards that we will receive. Also suicide is a selfish act and causes pain and grief to those that are closest to you. There is help available for those who are in deep depression, which in some people is caused by a chemical imbalance, or low serotonin level. Counsel is also based on scriptural principles. There are many examples of those who went before us and were martyred or endured persecution and even in these times there are many who are suffering for the cause of Christ. Not that you need to be torn by lions or burned at the stake to know persecution, there are more subtle forms of it, the bible also assures us that we will have tribulations in this world, but we also can have peace because the Lord is with us. We have three enemies in this world the devil, our flesh, and the world, but we must keep in mind that the war is not fought with flesh, but with principalities of darkness, it is a spiritual war and that is why we must fight it with the weapons that the Spirit provides us with, such as prayer and faith, and put on the whole armor of God.

Greetings to you John 3:16,

That's bible all the way and it is true and what I been telling and trying to convey also within this thread. I find yet another kindred spirit today.

God Bless

Openly Curious

[SpiritLedEd]

if the person be a christian then i would debate that they would still go to heaven as they were saved. but i am sure many will disagree

Hello Hannah,

I like your name and well I am one of those who disagree with your opinion. First because murder is a sin and I'm sure every Christian would accept it as being a sin as willsmon said in her post "Thou shalt not murder" so this is a commandment and law of God that carries penalties or has consequences if you break it.

We are told in 1 John that when we sin we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father and if we are faithful to confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our tresspasses (sins).

Well the advocate is Jesus Christ who interceeds between us and the Father as Jesus shed his blood on the cross so that we can obtain his mercy in times of need. And if we will faithfully come to God and confess our faults and failures which are our transgressions against the commands and laws of God. Then if we will do that it tell us that God will be faithful and just to forgive us of our tresspasses. Because of the blood of his only begotten son that was shed for the atonement of those sins.

Now since that is the prescribe course for our sins, faults, failures, tresspasses, wickedness or whatever you want to call our wrong doings against the will of God we have to abide by that prescribed course if we want to be forgiven when we mess up and blow it.

Now if a person kills themselves they are gone there is no time left for them to be faithful and go to God and repent of their sin of murder for it is over for good in that persons life when they die.

One might say well I'll repent before I kill myself then I'll be forgiven and alright with God and everything will be all better for me. But that is only a lie the devil holds out for them to embrace because if they truly repented then they wouldn't willfully and knowing break the commandment of God that is not true repentance it's a Lie.

God Bless Hannah

Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

if the person be a christian then i would debate that they would still go to heaven as they were saved. but i am sure many will disagree

Hello Hannah,

I like your name and well I am one of those who disagree with your opinion. First because murder is a sin and I'm sure every Christian would accept it as being a sin as willsmon said in her post "Thou shalt not murder" so this is a commandment and law of God that carries penalties or has consequences if you break it.

We are told in 1 John that when we sin we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father and if we are faithful to confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our tresspasses (sins).

Well the advocate is Jesus Christ who interceeds between us and the Father as Jesus shed his blood on the cross so that we can obtain his mercy in times of need. And if we will faithfully come to God and confess our faults and failures which are our transgressions against the commands and laws of God. Then if we will do that it tell us that God will be faithful and just to forgive us of our tresspasses. Because of the blood of his only begotten son that was shed for the atonement of those sins.

Now since that is the prescribe course for our sins, faults, failures, tresspasses, wickedness or whatever you want to call our wrong doings against the will of God we have to abide by that prescribed course if we want to be forgiven when we mess up and blow it.

Now if a person kills themselves they are gone there is no time left for them to be faithful and go to God and repent of their sin of murder for it is over for good in that persons life when they die.

One might say well I'll repent before I kill myself then I'll be forgiven and alright with God and everything will be all better for me. But that is only a lie the devil holds out for them to embrace because if they truly repented then they wouldn't willfully and knowing break the commandment of God that is not true repentance it's a Lie.

God Bless Hannah

Openly Curious