Suicide

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Romans 8:38-39

I don't think this is relevant to the curent discussion.

Nothing will never stop God from loving us.

But salvation is a different matter.

I think its really quite pertinent to the topic steve. After all, is not condemnation an eternal separation from God and hence th presence of his love? God says nothing can achieve such a thing once we have obtained grace through faith.

[50_Cent's_dog]

Amen.

[message]

Hi! Tari..

Thanks so much for answering my post..For your kindness and compassion..

Yes, thanks I do feel a lot better, than I did, eight years ago...Anyway!!

it has been a long long struggle though..

Great lack of concentration... And also a very short memory..too..which really messes most things up, like hearing, thinking, speaking..Just wish my Brain and mouth would get on better with each other..And somehow? Find out, how to be able, to really Synchronize

their watches together...

Might be able to get more than one thing, done at a time then...LOL! Ha! Ha!!!

Mind you, The dear Lord Jesus..somehow helped me slowely to Accept my crosses...

And now, with much Hindsight..I can really say, I am Really Blessed with Heavenly Riches that were not mine to have , before I was so ill eight years ago..

In the times, I was born...Humour ruled O.K.

But I am sorry to say.. that tears were not really much of the scene then..

Mostly I think cause, Doc's and that, didn't really know much about OUR Emotional Working's then..Unfortunatly...

I remember my Mum, saying once..[Just as I was going to burst into tears, too..]

She, suddenly remarked..'Oh please don't get upset, I don't like to see you cry.' So of course the old flood gates...Screamingly came to a halt...goodness knows how long that had to wait to come out another time..It just wasn't known about, how healthy, tears and a good howl, were for you then..

Never mind, life is a learning process,isn't it..

Full of hurdles, big and small, to get over, one way or another...

I call them, 'My Adventure's'..

Well it's what they are really..if one can look at them in an Optimistic way......that is..Iv'e always been an Opitimist..its a great way to live..

Mind you, I have often groaned in humour, at myself..

Thinking its really an ironic thing..

An Optimist--With Depression....LOL! doesn't sound quite right somehow does it!!!

I tell you one thing that has really helped me, helped my concentration really a lot..

And that is, someone, mentioned to me, about getting a Computer??!!...

Good thing they were a friend..

So we both laughed together.. when I said..

I don't know here I am, can't put two words together..let alone talk in a straight line..and you are saying, I should get a computer....

I'm in my middle years , and have never even begun to think, that I should get a computer.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let alone learning how to work one..

SO I DID!!!!

Boy it was hard..but I have Determination..and always a lot of Patience..

I won't go into it at all now...

But, here I am about four years later..

Having mastered a little more, [ Just a bit more..] than just the basic skills..

I think it is wonderful, and often find myself when on line, looking at the screen..

In utter Wonderment..Just trying to think of the many many too many to say..who added their little bit of skill..To what now has become the Internet......I find it all, really Mind Boggling Stuff, I really do...Thrilling stuff , at that....

So while we had plenty of humour and goodwill and compassion towards one another...

Bit like the Walton's...

I know some people say that is not true to life..

Probably because they have not known such relationships....

But if like |I did, you had known such a close knit family..then watching the Waltons..was a great reminder of how things were, growing up in those days..

Make it almost sound like Pre-Victorian, don't I..Not Quite!!...

Anyway thanks again Tari.for your email

Nice to talk to you...

Thanks again...

May Life Treat You Well..

From message x+

[message]

Pray don't find fault with the manwho limps

Or stumbles along the road,

Unless you have worn the shoes he wears

or struggled beneath his load.

There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,

Though hidden away from view,

Or the burden he bears, placed on your back,

Might cause you to stumble, too.

********

Don't sneer at the man who is down today,

Unless you have felt the blow

That caused his fall, or felt the shame

That only the fallen know.

You may be strong, but still the blows

That were his, if dealt to you

In the self same way at the self same time,

Might cause you to stagger, too.

**********

Don't be too harsh with the man who sins,

Or pelt him with words or stones,

Unless you are sure, yea, doubly sure,

That you have no sins of your own.

For you know, perhaps, if the tempters voice

Should whisper as soft to you

As it did to him when he went astray

'Twould cause you to falter, too.

By Franc Knighton

[Ovedya]

Boy, you leave a thread for one night and then suddenly you're two pages behind in your reading!

No, Commit suicide--death--no breath--no forgiveness--no grace--no hope--die in their sins--condemned.

I have seen others within this thread bring up the subject of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" so I am going to address this. Because I have no idea where the subject of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has any bearing on the subject of a believer commiting suicide. Unless people have doctrinal beliefs surrounding this issue of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" linking it the the subject of a believer "commiting the actual act of suicide".

But in the things you are suggesting to me Ovedya well I see a thin line myself and will address it. You are actually suggesting to me that every one who has died "prior" to recieving Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior by faith all died of unforgiveable sins. Now if I say what you want me to say it would be wrong in this regards. And I do not share that view it is you who are suggesting this. That is why I'm pointing this out and will not accept the theology you want me to embrace.

No. That is not what I said. Nor did I suggest such a thing. But the verses I quoted, the one that Tess quotes, and the ones that NewPilgrim quoted go right to this issue. In fact, if we were to accept your position as true, Saul and Samson would both be in hell, and Moses, Elijah, and Job would have sinned by asking God to kill them.

In the same way our "past" sins condemned us if we died before confession it was to late--Unforgiveable. It is no different in regards to any "present" or "future" sins we may commit for they also have to come under the blood. Every sin is "Forgiveable" "only" if one asks God will most gracious pour out to them the measure of grace they are in need of.

In that way all sins are "Forgiveable" but not everyone will come receive the forgiveness and grace they are in need of and they will die in their sins in the same way that our past sins condemned us. In this way I say yes there are sins that go unconfessed that to the person who commited them will be unforgiven. Not within the manner in which you have put it.

All sins can be forgiven. Sin--confess by faith--receive more grace--peace with the Maker-- no more condemnation.

In the case of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" -- if you do it--you are condemned--no forgiveness--no grace--eternal damnation.

So there is a difference in the things you imply. I hope I have clarified this difference.

And by implications I see it as --Grace Is Limited--we can only receive the grace of God in "measure"as he gives it into our lives as we need it.---Forgiveness is limitless--for one can recieve it any time they are in need of it but they got to come to God to receive it--whosoever will let him come--the Spirit of God don't stop whooing us just because we confessed one day at an alter. But He Keeps Ever calling us to His side so that we will make it home one day to be with Him without spot or wrinkles.

This is where your theology is flawed: Thinking that grace is limited or that grace is not extended under certain conditions. Grace is not conditional. That is why it's called "grace." Grace is, "The unmerited favor of God." It is the favor which He has extended to all mankind because of the one sacrifice of Christ upon the cross:

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 3:24)

"Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:1-2)

Contrary to your aseertion here the Bible never limits the scope of grace, and it never places any condition upon grace other than that of having access to grace through the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

1Thessalonians 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"

The apostle Paul was addressing the believers not the unbelievers in this regards. We must keep our spirits clean, which are our emotions which sin can effect them like having anger, resentment, jealousy, bitterness towards others we must not let these sins come into our spirits to dwell if we do our spirits are unclean we spew out hatred and other things that these types of sins bring into our lives and we need to repent of these things so the fruit of the Spirit will be present and our speech will be seasoned with salt. that is how you are to preserve your spirit blameless in his sight get sin out let Jesus shine

Our soul is to be preserved blameless being our will the part of us that makes decisions our intellect. Our wills can be hindered if sin is in our lives in general as it takes our right judgement away from us to make the proper decision as we are to live a life pleasing in the sight of God according to His word. One cannot do that if they have sin in their life. So if one wants to have good sound and right judgement (which is a gift of God) and want the blessings of God to come into their lives then keep sin out and your "free will" will choose the right over the wrong and be conquered. As you will in this way preserve your soul blameless as God will grant forgiveness.

Our bodies are to be preserved blameless we are not to take our bodies and give them over to sins we are not to commit adultery, we are not to be drunkards, we are not to take any part of our bodies and give it over unto sin if you do then you need to repent and stop doing it. You are in this way told to preserve you body blameless in the sight of God.

In all three parts of our being sin must go and be put under the blood. All three areas must be kept clean and it is the believers responsibility to see to it that they do. As God has done his work already and provided us the help the forgiveness and grace we need to get the job done. But we got to do it all the days of our lives.

And this is what it means to be in Christ

Blessings in Christ

Openly Curious

I don't disagree entirely with what you have written here (Although sin cannot enter into your human spirit), however, that does not deal with the serious theological errors that I have been pointing out to you.

You seem to be implying here (And elsewhere in this thread) that a Christian who sins is no different than an unbeliever. The Bible never makes that case at all. A believer in Christ who has at once received forgiveness for sins, has obtained access to God's unlimited grace, is justified out of faith (not by works), and has received the very life of God Himself, and has been made a partaker of God's divine nature.

Yet for all these things that the believer has gained access to, you would have me believe that it is all discarded the very moment that a Christian sins. Not only so, but if that Christian dies with a sin not yet confessed and repented of, despite all that he had gained access to, and despite the grace extended to him by God, he is destined to eternal perdition.

...And you have yet to prove this position with one single shred of evidence from the Bible.

[Ovedya]

In Judges 16:29-30 Samsonl killed himself and all those inside, by pushing two pillars apart. Since suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven due to the person's inability to repent and confess, did Samsonl go to hell?

In 1 Samuel 31:4-6 Saul fell on his sword after his armor bearere refused to kill him. Then the armor bearer also fell on his sword. Are both of these men in hell?

So if thus God be so pleased why don't we just all kill ourselves right now and go on to heaven after all the saints of old did it

Where is my gun?

OC

Know what, OC? That doesn't address the problems between your theology and these verses? It's just a snide comment without any substance.

[Ovedya]

Also, OC, please address the following two posts. I'd really like to see how you answer these: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=535331

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=535345

[Openly Curious]

Is there room at that brick wall for one more?

Openly Curious

If not I'm sure that while in someone's daze you can use their spot.

NewPigrim

OC, please answer Tess's questions> And again I would ask that you keep waffle to a minimum, please be pertinant in your answers, theyre simple enough questions:

Openly Curious,

I believe I did answer all of Tess's questions.

NewPigrim

*Quote* My question: at what point do you consider a person saved? Do you believe that upon salvation, a person's spiritual identity is changed? Are only the sins which have been committed up to that point forgiven and no others?

Openly Curious,

God considers a person saved. When they acknowledge their need of salvation and at that time of acknowledgement which only comes from our condemning hearts before Him. One must use the measure of faith that God has dealt to every person and respond to the gospel message by faith. As one by faith comes to Christ and accepts the work that Christ did at the cross for them personally being the death, burial, and ressurrection. Then that after accepting the truth of the work of the cross in their heart they then have to make a public or outward confession of their acknowledgment of that truth. Then at that point they are saved through faith and receive the grace of God his unmerited favor in the measure they needed from God to cover and erase all "past sins".

Luke 7:47--12:42--48

To him that hath been forgiven much much is required of them than those have been forgiven little little is required.

This verse shows at the time of salvation some folks have more sins that they have commited in life than others and more will be required of them because the measure of grace was more given to them. The apostle Paul was a prime example of this grace in abundance that he received from the Lord.

Luke 7:47--"Wherefore, I say unto thee. Her sins which are many are forgiven for she loved much but to whom little is forgiven the same loveth little.

Luke 12:42-48--"And the Lord said Who then is that faithful and wise steward whom his lord shall make ruler over his household to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. ** "But" and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens and to eat and drink and to drunken.

The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for Him and at an hour when he is not aware **and will cut him asunder and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers** And that servant which **knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself neither did according to his will **shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes**For unto whomsoever much is given of him shall be much required and to whom men have committed much of him they will ask the more"

NewPigrim

Secondly:

*Quote* No, Commit suicide--death--no breath--no forgiveness--no grace--no hope--die in their sins--condemned.

Quit flogging a dead horse brother. Any way you write it, this IS conditional salvation. By what ever reasoning, you say God CANNOT and/or WILL NOT forgive unconfessed sin and this will condemn you.

You are peddling conditional salvation, which you put most eloquently in this posting:

*Quote* It is our responsibility to "retain" it and this is godly counsel all the way. Unfortunately some will choose not to come back and choose to stay in their sins instead.

You're so inline with conditional security doctrine that I despair at how you claim not to recognise it

Openly Curious

I believe in the truths that are found within both sides of the coin. Each group has truth and also errors on their side. And maybe I started a brand new group but that is how I see it I don't fit into either one of these groups totally or fully. I guess I"ll call this new group that I fit into "Conditionally Freed And Secured" (CFS).

NewPigrim

OC, may I suggest that you are so pressed for time because you STILL waste an awful lot of it by eloquently dodging questions and wandering off into irrelevant topics.

Openly Curious,

I would give thee counsel to go get some relaxation on your part and take a chill pill as they are saying now today because your anger towards me is manifesting itself within your speech and I think it will do you well to take time to yourself and relax a little. I have been answering all of your questions which are many and it just takes time I am sorry I am not speedy Gonzales but I to the best of my ability have been answering your questions.

NewPigrim

Thankyou for finally at least attempting to provide "clear scripture" but the two passages you cited are sadly inadequate for upholding your views on unconfessed sin, as neither of them actually address it!! not once is uncofessed sin leading to condemnation mentioned in either passage.

Openly Curious

The passage in 1 John did it not say anything at all about "sins" that condemned our hearts before God taking our confidence away from us towards God. And when we confess our hearts don't condemn us before God any more and because of it we have confidence with God once again and can pray and he will hear us and give us the things he asked."

Well I believe it did address the issue of uncofessed sin even if you want to evade that passage of text. Also within another post within this same thread I even to the time to share in detail for someone about these very scriptures. And they are my views by my views have been formed from the things taught with the scriptures towards unconfessed sin. You can deny that the bible does not address this issue but that is your wilfull choice.

NewPigrim

Its telling however that you first misinterpreted the parable of the true vine which refers to people who walk and talk and act like christians but do not have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the seal and guarantee (Eph 1:13) of our salvation, rather they are people who take on the traditions and work of the christian church, but do not have an intimate relationship with Jesus, they are not FED by the ROOT of the vine. I've read some of your other scriptural interpretations, such as your explanation of 1Cor 15:35-44 which you claimed decribed the difference between angels and men, but in fact is a descriptive of the resurrection body and the indelible connection between the body and the spirit.

Openly Curious

No matter what you say or I believe the parable teaches without doubt the validity to "Stay" in the vine and if one does not they will be cut off cast aside and whither away and die. No matter who you say it is referring to the truth remains "solid"

NewPigrim

Why do you continue your insistance for scriptures on the OSAS debate? I gave you a link to plenty. You can also use the search facility on this site. Theres no need to hijack the thread, stick to the topic.

Openly Curious,

I've heard this hijacking theme of yours for the second time now. How am I hijaking this thread I have been responding to those who are responding to me although I may have overlooked a few but I'm human.

NewPigrim

OSAS is only pertinent to this topic inso much as your belief in sin and confession provides a view of salvation which is conditional to having every sin covered by confessing it to God, so that a genuine and faithful believer in Jesus who's life is dedicated to his gospel and his works can be sent to eternal condemnation simply because he swore when he saw the truck that hit him a split second later. There can only be the conditional or the unconditional, there is no such thing as "Neo-semi-unconditionality"

I have a serious question for you:

As a believer, when we confess our sins to God, what makes that confession acceptable to him and by what means is his forgiveness of that sin made possible?

Openly Curious,

Every person has their own consciousness towards God that being the case if someone does something that is wrong in their own consciousness that they know is displeasing in God's sight then their own hearts will in fact condemn them before God if they try to approach him their hearts condemns for the wrong they have done.

It is when we violate our own consciousness that we sin and we our own conscious condemns us we have to confess our faults to God and in this obedience to God will grant his fogiveness once again just like he did when we got saved. And God is well pleased as the blood is still sufficient for our sins. Once this happens a believers conscious is clear towards God and can approach God in confidence without their hearts condemning them and ask what they will and he heareth them.

I cannot tell what will violate your conscious or others consciouseness because that is your personal relationship with God and you have to walk according to your own consciousness within this realm. But one can go to bed every night in peace with God if they keep their conscious clean before God. God is well pleased with this and will accept them and grant his forgivesness if they are faithful to confess their faults before him.

NewPigrim

It seems to me in your view of things that is what you got a quick fix one time at an altar one day in your past and don't need God anymore for anything because you got it all right then and there.......Where is your scriptures to back up your view.

At an altar? God is beyond the walls of a church. As is the case with many who share similar views to you, you completely misunderstand and misrepresent the motivations and beliefs of those who know that their salvation is secure. Unconditional sacrifice breeds unconditional gratitude, love and dedication.

Openly Curious

I have pondered on this but do not really quite understand what it is you are trying to get across to me here if you could elaborate a little more it would help me greatly. But I do not see how I am misrepresenting the motivations of others nor their beliefs I go on what they tell me what else can I go on. It is not I who is representing any one but myself it is others responsibility to represent their own motives and beliefs not mine.

I do not undermine nor will I undermine the love in which one has for the work of God and toward the Lord Jesus Christ I for I have great respect and esteem them highly in the Lord if fact. But that doesn't mean they do not have error in the things they say which is what I address. No different from you in this matter for isn't it you who have wrote me all these things to respond to.

NewPigrim

For the benefit of the hard of hearing: The verses you ask for are in THIS THREAD! - as I previously pointed out to you, and which you quoted back to me, by the way - "La la la la laaaaaa!"

but let me make it easy for you, after all why should you make any effort when you can just ignore evryone thats right here?

Openly Curious,

Again how am I ignoring everyone

NewPigrim

Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He HAS [-Accomplished! Completed!] perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I would have thought this passage alone should be enough for you, however:

Openly Curious,

The sacrifice that Jesus made which was his own body was sacrificed once and for all never to be done again it was finished this is not referring to us nor our sins but His body. Jesus is our High priest now as the high priest are no longer needed that worked in the temple preparing and making the blood sacrifices of the animals for the atonement of the people. Jesus is our high priest in heaven and is so ministering on our behalf making intercession for us as he reminds the Father of the great sacrifice in made on behalf of mankind. As the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat in the tabernacle of heaven. This verse is only in reference to Jesus's body being sacrificed once and not refering to our sins.

Although I know the blood covers and washes away our sins as we confess them.

NewPigrim

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who* is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Openly Curious,

At the time of salvation of past sins erased your "body" has been marked to go up in the time of the resurrection as you were purchased or bought back by the ransom that was paid for you your "body" was purchased as it belongs to God now.

It is the earnest of our inheritance because when we die we have the assurance that we will be joined with our bodies once again and also not us but our saved loved ones again we will get to see them again.

For the scriptures says in Ephesians 1:14 it is the "earnest of our inheritance" not the guarantee of it as you have misrepresented this verse to say.

New Pigrim

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, *as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Openly Curious,

As long as we "stay" with Christ as Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments" this is true. If we walk in obedience to the Lord's will pleasing in His sight our conscious not condemning us before Him and loving Him then nothing shall seperate us from the love of God as nothing can. But if we choose of our own free will to leave His side then that is the other side of the coin. One can leave his hand and go back out in sin.

NewPigrim

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Openly Curius,

The key is we as christians have to come to God in our times of need. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteous for they shall be filled. Seek ye first his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

NewPigrim

Thats your started for ten. Now lets move on from OSAS, please. If you want to debate it more, go to one of the many dozens of OSAS threads already in place at Worthy.

Again where is your scriptures that says "Christ is not Sufficient" to supply all our need according to his riches in glory.

[Openly Curious]

Boy, you leave a thread for one night and then suddenly you're two pages behind in your reading!

No, Commit suicide--death--no breath--no forgiveness--no grace--no hope--die in their sins--condemned.

I have seen others within this thread bring up the subject of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" so I am going to address this. Because I have no idea where the subject of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has any bearing on the subject of a believer commiting suicide. Unless people have doctrinal beliefs surrounding this issue of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" linking it the the subject of a believer "commiting the actual act of suicide".

But in the things you are suggesting to me Ovedya well I see a thin line myself and will address it. You are actually suggesting to me that every one who has died "prior" to recieving Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior by faith all died of unforgiveable sins. Now if I say what you want me to say it would be wrong in this regards. And I do not share that view it is you who are suggesting this. That is why I'm pointing this out and will not accept the theology you want me to embrace.

Ovedya

No. That is not what I said. Nor did I suggest such a thing. But the verses I quoted, the one that Tess quotes, and the ones that NewPilgrim quoted go right to this issue. In fact, if we were to accept your position as true, Saul and Samson would both be in hell, and Moses, Elijah, and Job would have sinned by asking God to kill them.

Openly Curious

Read post# 178

Ovedya

In the same way our "past" sins condemned us if we died before confession it was to late--Unforgiveable. It is no different in regards to any "present" or "future" sins we may commit for they also have to come under the blood. Every sin is "Forgiveable" "only" if one asks God will most gracious pour out to them the measure of grace they are in need of.

In that way all sins are "Forgiveable" but not everyone will come receive the forgiveness and grace they are in need of and they will die in their sins in the same way that our past sins condemned us. In this way I say yes there are sins that go unconfessed that to the person who commited them will be unforgiven. Not within the manner in which you have put it.

All sins can be forgiven. Sin--confess by faith--receive more grace--peace with the Maker-- no more condemnation.

In the case of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" -- if you do it--you are condemned--no forgiveness--no grace--eternal damnation.

So there is a difference in the things you imply. I hope I have clarified this difference.

And by implications I see it as --Grace Is Limited--we can only receive the grace of God in "measure"as he gives it into our lives as we need it.---Forgiveness is limitless--for one can recieve it any time they are in need of it but they got to come to God to receive it--whosoever will let him come--the Spirit of God don't stop whooing us just because we confessed one day at an alter. But He Keeps Ever calling us to His side so that we will make it home one day to be with Him without spot or wrinkles.

This is where your theology is flawed: Thinking that grace is limited or that grace is not extended under certain conditions. Grace is not conditional. That is why it's called "grace." Grace is, "The unmerited favor of God." It is the favor which He has extended to all mankind because of the one sacrifice of Christ upon the cross:

Openly Curious

I did not say grace was "conditional" I said grace is "limited" It is you saying that it is conditional. It is always there when we need it he giveth more grace. That don't mean we go out and sin so we can get more of the unmerited favor of God God forbid but it is there should we need.

We are to walk humble like a little child before the Lord because God resisteth the proud which are those who will not repent and continue in their sins

James 4:5-10--"Do you think that the scriptures saith in vain The Spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy.** But he giveth more grace.** Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but giveth grace unto the humble Submit yourselves therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you. *** Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you **Cleanse your hands ye sinners and purify your hearts ye double minded Be afflicted and mourn and weep let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up."

For God will do what we can't and if we will go to him draw nigh to him in humility which is what God "Loves" for us to do then God will draw nigh to us and give us more grace as scripture plainly tells us to overcome our problems and circumstances.

We can rise above them through humility and a life of surrender and in this way nothing can seperate us from the love of God. But this is the way God shows us personally of His great love in the relationship and fellowship we have with Him and it keeps the communication open and our prayers can be answered.

Ovedya,

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 3:24)

"Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:1-2)

Contrary to your aseertion here the Bible never limits the scope of grace, and it never places any condition upon grace other than that of having access to grace through the shed blood of Christ Jesus.

1Thessalonians 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"

The apostle Paul was addressing the believers not the unbelievers in this regards. We must keep our spirits clean, which are our emotions which sin can effect them like having anger, resentment, jealousy, bitterness towards others we must not let these sins come into our spirits to dwell if we do our spirits are unclean we spew out hatred and other things that these types of sins bring into our lives and we need to repent of these things so the fruit of the Spirit will be present and our speech will be seasoned with salt. that is how you are to preserve your spirit blameless in his sight get sin out let Jesus shine

Our soul is to be preserved blameless being our will the part of us that makes decisions our intellect. Our wills can be hindered if sin is in our lives in general as it takes our right judgement away from us to make the proper decision as we are to live a life pleasing in the sight of God according to His word. One cannot do that if they have sin in their life. So if one wants to have good sound and right judgement (which is a gift of God) and want the blessings of God to come into their lives then keep sin out and your "free will" will choose the right over the wrong and be conquered. As you will in this way preserve your soul blameless as God will grant forgiveness.

Our bodies are to be preserved blameless we are not to take our bodies and give them over to sins we are not to commit adultery, we are not to be drunkards, we are not to take any part of our bodies and give it over unto sin if you do then you need to repent and stop doing it. You are in this way told to preserve you body blameless in the sight of God.

In all three parts of our being sin must go and be put under the blood. All three areas must be kept clean and it is the believers responsibility to see to it that they do. As God has done his work already and provided us the help the forgiveness and grace we need to get the job done. But we got to do it all the days of our lives.

And this is what it means to be in Christ

Blessings in Christ

Openly Curious

I don't disagree entirely with what you have written here (Although sin cannot enter into your human spirit), however, that does not deal with the serious theological errors that I have been pointing out to you.

Ovedya

You seem to be implying here (And elsewhere in this thread) that a Christian who sins is no different than an unbeliever. The Bible never makes that case at all. A believer in Christ who has at once received forgiveness for sins, has obtained access to God's unlimited grace, is justified out of faith (not by works), and has received the very life of God Himself, and has been made a partaker of God's divine nature.

Openly Curious

No I am not implying that but if the believer stays in their sins that have overtaken them in life then their portion will be with the unbelievers because God will in fact "Resist" them because they are not walking humble before the Lord in their relationship with him. James 4:6 If you don't want to get on our Heavenly Father's bad side being a believer then I suggest strongly not to walk proudly in your sins before him because he does not like you will anger Him. If you want to be pleasing

to God and make Him a proud Father then I suggest strongly you walk humbly before him all the days of your life because this is what makes the Heavenly Father happy.

Ovedya

Yet for all these things that the believer has gained access to, you would have me believe that it is all discarded the very moment that a Christian sins. Not only so, but if that Christian dies with a sin not yet confessed and repented of, despite all that he had gained access to, and despite the grace extended to him by God, he is destined to eternal perdition.

Ovedya

...And you have yet to prove this position with one single shred of evidence from the Bible.

Openly Curious

Please Read post# 178 as it addresses further

[nebula]

Openly Curious -

Please stop calling me a "him".

Didn't you see the note where I said I'm a ?