Proof of God

[apothanein kerdos]

Good riddance.

Now, can we get back to the intelligent discussion?

I am really looking to people like Fiosh, Tess, Cell, and Mike2 who have already responded.

[Copper Scroll]

Can we, as Christians, prove God?

I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know how novel my approach is. I'll shoot anyway.

Most atheists explain their position from the following angle: Everything that can reasonably and meaningfully said to be real must be witnessed or witness-able--meaning, experienced directly or obtained through the senses or what have you. Since God can't be seen, heard, smelt, etc. it is meaningless and/or unreasonable to say that God exists.

After this, I typically say that God is not an object. Rather, God is the ultimate subject. This tends not to convince or change the mind of the typical atheist. So now I try basically saying this but from their angle:

Everything that can be said to be real must be obtained through the sense, experienced, witnessed. So, all that I know is real is experienced by me. But I trust that you, like me, are a subject who is also capable of experience. So, what you know to be real, I can know to be real once you communicate it to me. I have a subjective reality, and you have a subjective reality; the common ground between them, we call "intersubjective". Because it is shared by a great number of subjects, I tend to put more faith in this intersubjective reality than I do knowledge of my own subjective reality. I, as an individual subject, can be fooled pretty easily. It would be far more difficult to fool everybody, so I think the intersubjective reality is more reliable. Though faith is required to put the intersubjective before the subjective when they clash, this faith is reasonable and often absolutely necessary.

The problem with it is that our intersubjective reality relies heavily on us. If I can be wrong as an individual subject, perhaps, we call can be wrong. Our intersubjective reality needs a stronger foundation. Another leap of faith is now required. We believe that our intersubjective reality, which is wholly dependent on us, is indicative of a reality that is completely independent of us. We call this reality "objective". So strong is our need for a strong foundation to what we agree is true, that we tend to think of the concepts of "intersubjective reality" and "objective reality" as interchangable. We tend to ignore the fact that true objectivity is impossible for us. As intersubjectivity is based upon our shared experience and shared knowledge, true objectivity requires consummate experience and perfect knowledge--which we sorely lack individually and collectively. Omniscience is required for true objectivity--so that all factors can be can be taken into consideration when viewing an phenomenon (to be sure that it is not an illusion) or making a judgment. But we have faith that an objective reality exists (truly this faith is necessary in order for us to lead meaningful lives) and grasp at it when we practice law, science, journalism, and various other more common tasks. In order to live meaningful lives, we must grasp at it--even if it is ultimately unattainable.

Now, most atheists don't have the problem with agreeing that an objective reality exists, but remember: everything that can be said to be real must be obtained through sense experience--it must be witnessed. Who is witnessing the objective reality? Not us, because we are not omniscient. The existence of an omniscient subject is necessary for belief in an objective reality. There must be a God.

[CellShade]

You still haven't proved anything. Philosophy doesn't prove anything. You can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a Spirit out there that is in control of everything. It just can't be done.

Telling someone to look around and explain how it all came to be if not for God is weak. I could say evolution, or aliens have a hand in all this. I could come up with countless reasons why things are the way they are and not include God in any of them.

When you start speaking philosophy to someone, they're going to come back and say show me. Just because we have laws doesn't mean God made them. There are laws that permit abortion, did God make that? There are people who are trying get laws passed that allow 2 men or 2 women to married, is that one of God's laws too?

Look here...I know what you are saying. I'm not doubting that philosophy plays a big part in this but to an unbeliever it means nothing. Your philosophy works if you're talking to a christian or someone with an open mind, but to someone who totally rejects the idea of God, your philosophy means nothing.

I don't know.....if you want to quit this, we'll end it here. However, you haven't proven anything. So do what you will, but don't think I'm backing down because I'm not. I'm not intimidated by your intelligence and that of your friends. All that says is that you have more schooling than I do, it doesn't make you smarter.

If come up with aliens, I'll say who created aliens, if you say who created God, I'll say God didn't need to be created since He only applied the rule of creation to the universe and not to Himself, since creation is a rule created by God, in which all things must be created by A Creator.

Also what prooves are their for aliens, hmmm crop circles, like the ones many people do to draw attention and have conffsed for doing them themself, or the fact of people seing aliens, but what about the fact of The Bible and that 500 or more people witnessed God going back to heaven?

Just a couple of points I would respond to the alien theory just in case.

Also, you don't have to have advance studies to know this fact, you just gotta know the truth, know a bit of the Bible, believe in God and you are set to uncover a marvelous world, also as ak mentioned the Earth is a prove of God creation itself.

[apothanein kerdos]

You still haven't proved anything. Philosophy doesn't prove anything. You can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a Spirit out there that is in control of everything. It just can't be done.

Telling someone to look around and explain how it all came to be if not for God is weak. I could say evolution, or aliens have a hand in all this. I could come up with countless reasons why things are the way they are and not include God in any of them.

When you start speaking philosophy to someone, they're going to come back and say show me. Just because we have laws doesn't mean God made them. There are laws that permit abortion, did God make that? There are people who are trying get laws passed that allow 2 men or 2 women to married, is that one of God's laws too?

Look here...I know what you are saying. I'm not doubting that philosophy plays a big part in this but to an unbeliever it means nothing. Your philosophy works if you're talking to a christian or someone with an open mind, but to someone who totally rejects the idea of God, your philosophy means nothing.

I don't know.....if you want to quit this, we'll end it here. However, you haven't proven anything. So do what you will, but don't think I'm backing down because I'm not. I'm not intimidated by your intelligence and that of your friends. All that says is that you have more schooling than I do, it doesn't make you smarter.

If come up with aliens, I'll say who created aliens, if you say who created God, I'll say God didn't need to be created since He only applied the rule of creation to the universe and not to Himself, since creation is a rule created by God, in which all things must be created by A Creator.

Also what prooves are their for aliens, hmmm crop circles, like the ones many people do to draw attention and have conffsed for doing them themself, or the fact of people seing aliens, but what about the fact of The Bible and that 500 or more people witnessed God going back to heaven?

Just a couple of points I would respond to the alien theory just in case.

Also, you don't have to have advance studies to know this fact, you just gotta know the truth, know a bit of the Bible, believe in God and you are set to uncover a marvelous world, also as ak mentioned the Earth is a prove of God creation itself.

CopperScroll....you lost me on the subjective reality part. Are you saying that we live in a false reality, that our reality is inadequate because we are finite, or what? I got what you said about God being in the objective reality, but I'm confused as to where you're going on the subjective reality. Care to explain?

[Copper Scroll]

CopperScroll....you lost me on the subjective reality part. Are you saying that we live in a false reality, that our reality is inadequate because we are finite, or what? I got what you said about God being in the objective reality, but I'm confused as to where you're going on the subjective reality. Care to explain?

I am not saying that subjective reality is false... I'm saying that our assessment of it (the truth that we pull from it) can be false--can ultimately be proven wrong--is subject to illusion--is incomplete and partially ignorant. I can be duped by an optical illusion, because I can't see the thing from every angle. I can be duped into sending an innocent man to prison because I only have what I see in court as the basis for my judgment--and I also have certain prejudices based on incomplete knowledge in other aspects of my life. The shortcomings of the "subjective" are all based on lack of knowledge.

Let's take the roundness of the earth, for example. Once a people all agreed that the world was flat; this was obvious to them. That the world was flat was a truth based on an intersubjective reality. By saying that the world was flat, people probably thought they were being objective. However, their "truth" was based on limited knowledge. Ultimately the observations of one or a few people proved this "truth" false.

I presume that God knew all along that the world was round, because truly objective and undeniable truth is accessible only to Him. As seen, our "intersubjective" is not the same as God's "objective"--but it's all that we have because our knowledge is limited. God's, of course, is not.

Hope this helps.

[Guest Godless Heathen]

Can we, as Christians, prove God?

I would support the idea that we can. For one, all of the patriarchs and even new Testament people saw, interacted, and heard God. This occured either through the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or God the Father. Thus, if faith rests upon our lack of proof in God, these men had no faith. If, however, faith is putting our trust in what we know to be true, these men had absolute faith.

Thus, how do we as Christians prove God?

We look to the human experience. Let us look at a universal moral; murder. It is generally accepted that to kill someone with malice is wrong. If we remove God from the equation, or at least some sort of source, then there is no reason to prohibit murder or feel objectionable to it. If I am nothing more than a highly evolved animal than killing for my own benefit, or for the benefit of my family, there is logically nothing wrong with murder. God has been removed from the equation.

This applies across the board. When we take God out of the equation, when we remove the Supernatural, there is no reasoning behind the human experience. There is no reason to live or exist. "We do this to exist." Why do we want to exist in the first place? What is our reasoning behind such a thing? There is none.

When we put God into the equation, we see the proof....we see why we are human.

Lots of people CLAIM to have seen bigfoot, leprechauns, UFOs, werewolves and vampires. So I guess must they exist. How about all the other gods throughout recorded history that people have claimed to see. I guess they must exist too.

Yes let's look at human experience. Many cultures have survived and thrived without any knowledge of the christian god. Where did they get their morals from? The reason to prohibit murder, theft, rape etc is quite simple. Organized, lawful society cannot succeed in chaos, these prohibitions exist because people would not come together in social interaction if everyone is allowed to kill each other. Society is all about security and without security economic and social interaction cannot take place.

Why does there need to be a reason to exist? Why can't people just be happy to live, raise children and enjoy life, why does there need to be some deeper cause? Fear, that's why, we are afraid of death and to make ourselves feel better we give ourselves meaning and purpose and a happy place to go when we die, a place where our loved ones are wiating. Religion uses that fear to gain control.

[CellShade]

Can we, as Christians, prove God?

I would support the idea that we can. For one, all of the patriarchs and even new Testament people saw, interacted, and heard God. This occured either through the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or God the Father. Thus, if faith rests upon our lack of proof in God, these men had no faith. If, however, faith is putting our trust in what we know to be true, these men had absolute faith.

Thus, how do we as Christians prove God?

We look to the human experience. Let us look at a universal moral; murder. It is generally accepted that to kill someone with malice is wrong. If we remove God from the equation, or at least some sort of source, then there is no reason to prohibit murder or feel objectionable to it. If I am nothing more than a highly evolved animal than killing for my own benefit, or for the benefit of my family, there is logically nothing wrong with murder. God has been removed from the equation.

This applies across the board. When we take God out of the equation, when we remove the Supernatural, there is no reasoning behind the human experience. There is no reason to live or exist. "We do this to exist." Why do we want to exist in the first place? What is our reasoning behind such a thing? There is none.

When we put God into the equation, we see the proof....we see why we are human.

Lots of people CLAIM to have seen bigfoot, leprechauns, UFOs, werewolves and vampires. So I guess must they exist. How about all the other gods throughout recorded history that people have claimed to see. I guess they must exist too.

Yes let's look at human experience. Many cultures have survived and thrived without any knowledge of the christian god. Where did they get their morals from? The reason to prohibit murder, theft, rape etc is quite simple. Organized, lawful society cannot succeed in chaos, these prohibitions exist because people would not come together in social interaction if everyone is allowed to kill each other. Society is all about security and without security economic and social interaction cannot take place.

Why does there need to be a reason to exist? Why can't people just be happy to live, raise children and enjoy life, why does there need to be some deeper cause? Fear, that's why, we are afraid of death and to make ourselves feel better we give ourselves meaning and purpose and a happy place to go when we die, a place where our loved ones are wiating. Religion uses that fear to gain control.

Correction, you are afraid of death, I am not

Now family members dying without God, that is what I am afraid of.

You know that's what happens to atheist, they try to imagine a world without meaning, they just like to reject the possibility and the fact of Jesus Christ because they are afraid of changing there ways.

Also you ask why does people need a reason to exist, why do always find a reason to try to disproof God when they always fall hard on their faces

[CellShade]

Also another thing to add.

Why do atheist have to be afraid of death?

After all they complain of life so much you might aswell say they hate living.

While christians may like to be alive, but we not afraid of death

[apothanein kerdos]

CopperScroll....you lost me on the subjective reality part. Are you saying that we live in a false reality, that our reality is inadequate because we are finite, or what? I got what you said about God being in the objective reality, but I'm confused as to where you're going on the subjective reality. Care to explain?

I am not saying that subjective reality is false... I'm saying that our assessment of it (the truth that we pull from it) can be false--can ultimately be proven wrong--is subject to illusion--is incomplete and partially ignorant. I can be duped by an optical illusion, because I can't see the thing from every angle. I can be duped into sending an innocent man to prison because I only have what I see in court as the basis for my judgment--and I also have certain prejudices based on incomplete knowledge in other aspects of my life. The shortcomings of the "subjective" are all based on lack of knowledge.

Let's take the roundness of the earth, for example. Once a people all agreed that the world was flat; this was obvious to them. That the world was flat was a truth based on an intersubjective reality. By saying that the world was flat, people probably thought they were being objective. However, their "truth" was based on limited knowledge. Ultimately the observations of one or a few people proved this "truth" false.

I presume that God knew all along that the world was round, because truly objective and undeniable truth is accessible only to Him. As seen, our "intersubjective" is not the same as God's "objective"--but it's all that we have because our knowledge is limited. God's, of course, is not.

Hope this helps.

I see what you're saying now. Basically our experience can be flawed at times, which is why we need a true knowledge of what is going on, correct? If so, I agree.

Lots of people CLAIM to have seen bigfoot, leprechauns, UFOs, werewolves and vampires. So I guess must they exist. How about all the other gods throughout recorded history that people have claimed to see. I guess they must exist too.

You're ignoring the logic given though. I am not basing this solely off what people have claimed to seen. I am basing this off logic as well. There is no logical proof for leprechauns or any of the other things you listed. It is based purely on experience and therefore cannot be considered legitimate. However, what I am speaking of is experience with logic.

As for the other gods, they simply do not stand to logic. Plato realized this when reviewing the Greek gods, that they were often controled by fate and therefore could not qualify as true gods, only myths. They were just like humans with special powers, had no moral absolutes, and therefore could not have brought about a society (this is Plato's reasoning). To him, if there was a God, He had to be all powerful and had to be the absolute moral good.

We turn to the Eastern gods and find that, though they are all powerful, they are impersonable. It doesn't stand how an impersonable force could make a personable creation (man). Any god you look at collapses on itself when you compare it to reality...the only exception is the judeo-Christian God.

Yes let's look at human experience. Many cultures have survived and thrived without any knowledge of the christian god. Where did they get their morals from? The reason to prohibit murder, theft, rape etc is quite simple. Organized, lawful society cannot succeed in chaos, these prohibitions exist because people would not come together in social interaction if everyone is allowed to kill each other. Society is all about security and without security economic and social interaction cannot take place.

You're making a presupposition here that is unjustified. For one, why did man seek out an organized society? Why did man seek out security? If the rest of the animal kingdom can exist with its security and oranization (or lack thereof) why did man have to rise above it? Why did they build moral constructs when there was absolutely no need for moral constructs?

Why does there need to be a reason to exist? Why can't people just be happy to live, raise children and enjoy life, why does there need to be some deeper cause? Fear, that's why, we are afraid of death and to make ourselves feel better we give ourselves meaning and purpose and a happy place to go when we die, a place where our loved ones are wiating. Religion uses that fear to gain control.

If there is no explanation of where we came from, then there is no justification for our laws. For example, if we truly are just highly evolved animals, there is no reason to prohibit rape and murder; these occur in the animal kingdom and therefore we should be subject to the same experience. Ultimately there is no reason for raising a family or enjoying life when we don't know why we should enjoy it. Furthermore, what if I gain enjoyment and pleasure out of choking people to death? Is this wrong and disorderly, or does it curb the population problem whilst providing me pleasure? The problem is by ignoring where we come from you lose all justification for current laws. For one, we cannot define what order is when we lose a moral absolute or an origin of our moral constructs; "order" would be subjective to each person's interpretation. Secondly, once we define order, we would have no absolute method of getting there. When we ignore where we came from and try to live on blissfully, we lose all justification for our current state.

As it is, under your worldview, you have no justification for laws or what you call "order."

[Guest Godless Heathen]

Correction, you are afraid of death, I am not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now family members dying without God, that is what I am afraid of.

You know that's what happens to atheist, they try to imagine a world without meaning, they just like to reject the possibility and the fact of Jesus Christ because they are afraid of changing there ways.

Also you ask why does people need a reason to exist, why do always find a reason to try to disproof God when they always fall hard on their faces

Also another thing to add.

Why do atheist have to be afraid of death?

After all they complain of life so much you might aswell say they hate living.

While christians may like to be alive, but we not afraid of death

Riiiiight, easy to say but I can guarantee that if a guy broke into your house in the middle of the night and put a gun to your head you'd be afraid of death. Unless of course you have nothing to live for. Even if YOU aren't afraid of death (highly unlikely) YOU don't speak for EVERYONE.

Actually you are dead wrong (no pun intended) because I would love to have proof of god and I'd be right there on my knees paying homage. This is a common mistake religious people make. Who wouldn't want to believe that there is a god who loves me and has a happy place to go for all eternity. All it takes is proof! No one's accomplished that task yet in the entire history of the world.

I'm not trying to disprove god because it's not up to me to prove or disprove god. If you want me to believe then YOU must prove god exists and if god wants me to believe all it takes is proof. TADA!! easily understood don't you think? If I want to prove to you that bigfoot exists should I expect you to believe it just because I say it exists or do you require a bit more proof?

Why do atheists have to be afraid of death? Well, they don't have to be but I sure am. I don't want to die, I want to live forever!!

That's a pretty far reaching statement, that atheists complain of life so much that we might as well hate living... I don't complain about life, life is great and I love living. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas, from other christians? Try asking an atheist next time you want to know something about atheists.