Illegal Immigration -- Disturbing Site

[Scarletprayers]

This thread makes me sad. Sure, you can not like illegal immigration, but you must not like it for a valid reason. For the sake of simplicity, I will simply refute everything on that little letter thing and a few other easy things.

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

Everybody can get free medical care, because Democrats exist. It is like saying that you do not want people drinking your water, despite you living in a river. Everybody can get it. It is just poluted. (afterall, free medical care is not that great)

A) Why should my tax dollars go to pay for people who aren't even supposed to be in this country. Social Security is ruined taking care of people who never paid a penny into it, leaving the people who actually did, with nothing, in their own country.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might

need, whether I use them or not.

Well for one, you probably would have this. And two, America does not have an official language. This means that it is a perfectly valid thing to have these here.

B) What has "official" got to do with, ever group of immigrants that came here learned English, that is the language of America if its been made official or not. More tax dollars wasted.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

See above. America has no official language, so it is our duty to provide forms in many languages.

C) See my response above, its our duty to take care of the people who have either a legal or born here, right to those forms and or services.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

That is interesting, considering that those going to school here who do not know English, do not get taught by for instance, Spanish speaking teachers regardless. The most they have is a single room where you both, try to learn what everybody else is learning, and learn English so you can get out of there.

D)And I and other Americans are responsible for this how? At least this is available to Spanish speaking people, what about people from Africa, or France or Poland, they are on their own trying to find these resources.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

That is also interesting, because I do not remember ever having a class on Mexican culture and history. I am hispanic, and I do not know anything about Mexico, other than the dates it got independance from Spain and France.

E)I didn't learn anything about my ancestors in history either, so what can I say about this one.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the

flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

Wonderfull. Because outside, when I look, I see just the American flag. I do not even see the Texas flag. And our school is 80% hispanic. You would think that if this happened so much, it would have happened here.

F) Have to agree with you there, never seen any other flag flying, how ever I saw plenty of flags for South American Countries during all of these protest about the immigration laws. You'd think if they wanted to stay here so badly, and loved with country so much, they might be carrying around the American flag.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and

lunch.

They feed everybody at breakfast and lunch. Do you mean for free?

G) I was a single mother with 3 kids, yet somehow I made to much money to get free anything for my kids.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy

access to government services.

Yes you will. You do not need to be legal to get one.

.H)Hummm, interesting.........but then Fox thinks that what we should be doing isn't it

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any

effort to learn local traffic laws.

You do need to be legal to get insurance. Hence they do not have it.

I) So, they shouldn't be driving here if they are not insured

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the

memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all

police officers speak English.

America does not have a official language. Nobody is required to speak English when they move here.

J) Once again, what does "official" have to do with it. Should we print all forms and have officers that can speak every language on earth just so............chaos, this just leads to chaos.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals

on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not

want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

Okay. America is a free country. Why would you get negative comments or complaints?

K) I would say if we came in the numbers to Mexico that are coming here and taking away so much, yeah there probably would be complaints!

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes,

and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

Illegals do not get nice jobs, they have to pay the sales tax, and they on average work for less that minimum wage, for longer hours. The average Illegal family makes about 10 thousand less a year than even a legal immagrant family.

L) The operative world being "ILLEGAL"

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice

and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might

place on the economy.

Everybody should be nice to everybody.

On economic strain: Illegals provide much cheap labour, pay sales tax, increase the Mexican economy by sending money over there, which in turn increases our economy as Mexico does buy things from us, they work more, they make is so that our country does not have negative growth, provide for more consumerism ect. Sorry to say that Illegals are at the very worst, nuetral in the workings of our economy.

M) Neutral on our economy......................please

14. Eventually I want to be able to vote and have all election materials

and notices sent to me in English with Spanish as a second language..

Great, considering you can not vote if you are Illegal.

And again, America has no official language.

and/or inevitable ecomic collapse and ourgrowing national debt....

Certainly is a good thing that we have national debt because we charge interest on ourselves, and when we borrow money, we turn around and lend it out at higher interest. Makes national debt rather meaningless.

N) So, you have no problem with the illegals in the country I'm guessing.

[Guest LadyC]

cyrrilia, i'm going to just point out a few things off the top of my head.

1. YES, even here in america, we are often harassed for displaying any symbols of support for our country. many workplaces will not allow employees to display anything on their desk or in their cubicle that even hints at patriotism. many home-owners associations have rules that forbid you from displaying a flag, even on veterans day or independance day. violate those rules and you can lose your job or pay huge fines by HOA's. recently students at one middle school were subjected to a change in dress code which prohibited them from wearing any clothing combination that included red, white, and blue. in other words, children were getting in trouble for wearing blue jeans, white t-shirt, and red jacket. the school's principal defended the new rule by saying that it created a HOSTILE environment.

2. you keep referring to american society, (the language, the democrats, the healthcare, the drivers license and insurance) when if i'm not mistaken (i'd have to go back to that original post you were quoting) the poster was saying that we should have those things available in OTHER countries... equality works both ways, does it not?

3. you talk about illegals paying sales tax. well so do we all. but illegals do not pay INCOME TAX or SOCIAL SECURITY TAX. thus, they drain our resources. furthermore, and this is the biggie here, the companies that hire them ALSO do not pay into the SS or internal revenue for the illegal employees, further draining our resources.

sidenote... democrats who are always screaming about how there will be no social security left when we reach retirement should really think again about how their open border attitude is more likely to make that become a reality in the very near future than anything republican policies could do.

another sidenote... sure, illegals take jobs at substandard wages... jobs that could be performed at standard wages (which are still substandard IMO) are not available to many who are starting out... the recently divorced housewife who hasn't worked in 20 years... the teenager trying to put themselves thru college. for every job position held by an illegal, there is a LEGAL resident (citizen or immigrant) who would love to do the work. in the meantime, because illegals are being paid substandard wages, they are sometimes sharing a two bedroom household with three other families to make ends meet. that is also illegal.

4. back up a sec... any american can get free health care? are you serious? gee, i'd like to know how to do that without committing the crime of fraud which would likely land me in jail, or simply refusing to pay the bill which ruins my credit. what free healthcare? my husband just had back surgery. he was unable to work for four months. he was lucky enough that his employer kept paying his insurance premiums during those months or we'd have really been sunk. as it is, the hospital and doctors are already breathing down our neck for the copays, and mark has barely been back on the job for a week.

on top of that, he wasn't able to get disability... and we have a roommate who is crippled from a car wreck, and he has been denied disability THREE TIMES from our lovely government that is so willing to give handouts to illegal immigrants. now in order to fight and appeal the decision, he has to hire an attorney and jump through hoops.

and unemployment? when my husband became unable to work, the company put him on lay-off status. unemployment sent us $311 per week for five weeks... and is now threatening us with legal action if we do not repay one of those weeks, because his anticipated return-to-work date changed, and the government would not grant him an extention.

5. let's talk about what happens if WE go to mexico without legal documentation. we're allowed to stay there for 90 days. after 90 days, if we have not obtained a visa or other documentation from the government, we will be put in jail.

6. and let's talk about all the immigrants from mexico and other countries trying to get here LEGALLY. if amnesty is a reward for illegally coming here, where does that leave all those who are still going through the process of coming legally? it's totally unfair to them. it's as if they're being penalized for trying to do the right thing.

i've said before and will say again. this is NOT an "immigration" issue, it is a "legal" issue.

[ayin jade]

14. Eventually I want to be able to vote and have all election materials

and notices sent to me in English with Spanish as a second language..

Great, considering you can not vote if you are Illegal.

Others have adequately addressed your issues. I want to address this one.

This January, there was a large ceremony to swear in new citizens. They were Mexican. Someone asked who needed forms to fill out in order to vote. No one did. Already, according to them, about 80% were able to vote before they became citizens. Voter fraud is a real issue in Arizona, with many illegals and many non citizens already voting. The state and the various agencies that deal with illegals in Arizona freely admit to this. Even the pro illegal immigrant groups acknowledge this. Yet nothing is done about it. Illegals vote.

[Cyrrylia]

What is with the quotes in this thread? Did I break them?

A) Why should my tax dollars go to pay for people who aren't even supposed to be in this country. Social Security is ruined taking care of people who never paid a penny into it, leaving the people who actually did, with nothing, in their own country.

The first one is a valid argument. They are illegal. However, the second argument is not. Again, they pay sales tax, they boost both the Mexican economy and ours by proxy, they work harder for less, ect. By proxy, they put plenty into it.

B) What has "official" got to do with, ever group of immigrants that came here learned English, that is the language of America if its been made official or not. More tax dollars wasted.

The fact that is not official means that you have no valid argument. Once it is official, go ahead. Former immagrants did not have to learn English. And some never did. Do remember that there are American hybrid languages still spoken like Cajun.

C) See my response above, its our duty to take care of the people who have either a legal or born here, right to those forms and or services.

You do not need to be proven legal to get these forms in your language. It is assumed by default. Thus, we must provide them to everybody who asks.

D)And I and other Americans are responsible for this how? At least this is available to Spanish speaking people, what about people from Africa, or France or Poland, they are on their own trying to find these resources.

Normaly, when people who do not speak spanish appear in schools, they are lumped into the same class, where somebody is contacted who can speak their language and paid a horribly large sum to come teach them.

E)I didn't learn anything about my ancestors in history either, so what can I say about this one.

Nothing? You can say you agree.

F) Have to agree with you there, never seen any other flag flying, how ever I saw plenty of flags for South American Countries during all of these protest about the immigration laws. You'd think if they wanted to stay here so badly, and loved with country so much, they might be carrying around the American flag.

Haha. I said the same thing. How funny.

G) I was a single mother with 3 kids, yet somehow I made to much money to get free anything for my kids.

Okay.

H)Hummm, interesting.........but then Fox thinks that what we should be doing isn't it

I do not understand

I) So, they shouldn't be driving here if they are not insured

They have to. They need to get around.

J) Once again, what does "official" have to do with it. Should we print all forms and have officers that can speak every language on earth just so............chaos, this just leads to chaos.

It has worked so far. Immigrants, legal or not, usualy end up speaking our language within 2 generations at most.

K) I would say if we came in the numbers to Mexico that are coming here and taking away so much, yeah there probably would be complaints!

Hmm. I must ask you to actualy list what they are "taking" and then compare to what they are giving. I would say that you would find them doing more good than harm. And actualy, Mexico would be very happy if we all came here. They are already encouraging Americans to immigrate there for retirement and such.

L) The operative world being "ILLEGAL"

Valid argument. They are illegal. But, if you hold this, you must not hold to your arguments pertaining to our lack of an official language. It is not a legal requirment for them to even bother at all to learn out language.

M) Neutral on our economy......................please

Okay. Fine. Tell me exactly what you believe this. Tell me everything bad that they do, and I will later tell you everything good that they do, and I will correct you, you will correct me, and let us see if we could not quantify the economic impact they realy are doing.

N) So, you have no problem with the illegals in the country I'm guessing.

Socialy, I find them mildly annoying, but economicaly I like them. Lots of cheap labour allows lower priced goods for us, which allows for more consumerism. More people also helps consumerism, which puts more money into our economy. They send money back to Mexico, which the families then spend in Mexico, which boosts the Mexican economy, which then has more money to import more goods from the US, creating a mutual benifit.

------------------------------------------------------------

I am not going to respond to everything you said, but want to comment on 3 things: language, history, and taxes.

In the area of language, there are many of us who believe English should be the official language in America and are supporting laws to make that a reality.

But it is not yet. So untill then, "They do not bother to learn English" is not a valid argument.

In the area of history, it only makes since that people here should learn American history over the history of any other part of the world. We don't need to put our emphasis on the history of Mexico, Africa, Spain, Turkey, Russia, etc. On the other hand, those nations need to stress their own unique history to the children attending their schools.

And they do. I again show that I learned nothing about my heritage, and neither in fact, did Silentprayer.

The only gripe I have concerning illegals paying taxes is in regard to income taxes. First of all, it is supposed to be illegal to hire them. I believe we need to throw anyone in prison that hires illegal aliens. These illegals pay no income taxes, yet get benefits paid for by those that do. That is not right. Personally, I would like to see a national sales tax replace income tax, but that is another issue. While illegals get paid less than those who are legal, that should just be expected. They are supposed to get nothing. They aren't supposed to be in this country. They broke the law. If there is a criminal running from the law that is a citizen, he is also at the mercy of anyone that is willing to help him.

You would not say that the fact that they do work harder for less than mimum wage trumps the fact that they pay no income tax? The benifits of their labour allows cheaper prices for goods. We can thus afford more. Withought them, we must pay more for goods, but maybe we have more money for medical aid. Only for those who qualify of course. There are other benifits to them, but I spoke of them already.

It is illegal to hire them. But it is hard to catch them. Companies do not want to be caught, and some politicians gain money to "overlook" a few. Which I do not care about. Cheaper goods for me.

A national sales tax can be debated in another thread, but just to say, I do not agree with the idea.

Personally, I have no problem with Hispanic people. Most I have come in contact with are good and hard working. I have a problem with law breakers. I also believe that if someone from any foreign nation wants to become an American, they need to give up their past national identity and become an American. We don't need a nation of African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Cuban-Americans, etc. We need to get to a place where we are simply American period. My anscestors on my Father's side came here from Italy, but I am not an Italian-American, I am an American. I don't believe we need to teach the children the Italian language and Italian history in the name of diversity. We need to become one united people.

In order to be "American" we need a unified language, heritage, culture, ect. Which we have none of. As a country, we will be hard pressed to unify culturaly. Other moshed up countries have an easier time because they pretty much killed all of the locals/thourougly bred them out. We, in the sake of compassion, did not do this. We were Americans, we were better than that. Slightly...

Once a person becomes a legal citizen, I don't care where they came from, they are now an American and are entitled to all the benefits (and liablilities such as paying outragious taxes) of any citizen, but I do not support giving equal benefits to criminals.

They do not get equal benifits. Equal benifits would require things like them gaining a minimum wage. The argument is not valid.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. YES, even here in america, we are often harassed for displaying any symbols of support for our country. many workplaces will not allow employees to display anything on their desk or in their cubicle that even hints at patriotism. many home-owners associations have rules that forbid you from displaying a flag, even on veterans day or independance day. violate those rules and you can lose your job or pay huge fines by HOA's. recently students at one middle school were subjected to a change in dress code which prohibited them from wearing any clothing combination that included red, white, and blue. in other words, children were getting in trouble for wearing blue jeans, white t-shirt, and red jacket. the school's principal defended the new rule by saying that it created a HOSTILE environment.

One, it depends on where you live. If you live in a community, you must abide by those rules. You live there. Nobody however, is forcing you to live there. At any time you may leave. They have a right to impose rules and regulations on you, regardless of how horrible they may be. This holds true for companies. If you do not like it, you may quit. They offer employment to you, they have the right to have any rules they wish.

And one instance does not mean the country if failing. (regarding the middle school)

2. you keep referring to american society, (the language, the democrats, the healthcare, the drivers license and insurance) when if i'm not mistaken (i'd have to go back to that original post you were quoting) the poster was saying that we should have those things available in OTHER countries... equality works both ways, does it not?

The thing was satire. It was not serious. It employed sarcasm to make a point that it is unjust for illegals to be here.

Other countries are other countries. We allow this. They may or may not. Equality does not have to work both ways when countries are run differently.

3. you talk about illegals paying sales tax. well so do we all. but illegals do not pay INCOME TAX or SOCIAL SECURITY TAX. thus, they drain our resources. furthermore, and this is the biggie here, the companies that hire them ALSO do not pay into the SS or internal revenue for the illegal employees, further draining our resources.

They add resources by working for less than minimum wage, and their very existence adds to our population. More people means more people buying, which adds more money. The companies that hire them do have to pay income tax, which added with what the illegals add, probably ballences out.

sidenote... democrats who are always screaming about how there will be no social security left when we reach retirement should really think again about how their open border attitude is more likely to make that become a reality in the very near future than anything republican policies could do.

While I absolutely despice Democratic fiscal policies, I would not agree with this statement. But then again, I do not agree with social security at all.

another sidenote... sure, illegals take jobs at substandard wages... jobs that could be performed at standard wages (which are still substandard IMO) are not available to many who are starting out... the recently divorced housewife who hasn't worked in 20 years... the teenager trying to put themselves thru college. for every job position held by an illegal, there is a LEGAL resident (citizen or immigrant) who would love to do the work. in the meantime, because illegals are being paid substandard wages, they are sometimes sharing a two bedroom household with three other families to make ends meet. that is also illegal.

There are plenty of jobs. I live in central Texas. We have plenty of illegals here. Yet, I have been working hard to *not* get a job. There are so many "Help Wanted" posters everywhere that I do not actualy have any excuse at all to not have a job.

I do not understand your last sentance.

Here is a sidenot from me:

By standard wage, I assume you mean the minimum. The minimum wage is where it should be. Raising it would increase the price of goods, negating what it was supposed to do. Increasing minimum wage also lowers employment in the unskilled lowerclass, which is who it should be helping. Also, the labour that is done at minimum wage I feel is overpayed. You can literaly be a signpost, and make 10 dollars an hour. To stand there. That is way too much. Burger flipping is not hard work. Minimum wage is exactly what you deserve, if not more, for such menial, unskilled labour. It also decreases the incentive for unskilled workers to gain skills. If I can live comfortably by burger flipping, why do I need to do anything else? The cost of labour increase would also lower economic growth.

All in all, the minimum wage is perfectly fine, if not too high.

4. back up a sec... any american can get free health care? are you serious? gee, i'd like to know how to do that without committing the crime of fraud which would likely land me in jail, or simply refusing to pay the bill which ruins my credit. what free healthcare? my husband just had back surgery. he was unable to work for four months. he was lucky enough that his employer kept paying his insurance premiums during those months or we'd have really been sunk. as it is, the hospital and doctors are already breathing down our neck for the copays, and mark has barely been back on the job for a week.

Be poor, and you get free health care. So yes, anybody can. If you make too much, quit your job. Just remember that free health care is horrible, and will always be horrible, as it is free. You are better where you are, than getting free healthcare.

on top of that, he wasn't able to get disability... and we have a roommate who is crippled from a car wreck, and he has been denied disability THREE TIMES from our lovely government that is so willing to give handouts to illegal immigrants. now in order to fight and appeal the decision, he has to hire an attorney and jump through hoops.

Okay. For one, how much do you all make? For another, can you realy show, maybe in a graph or something, that the US government is willing to give many free handouts to illegal immigrants, which seems to be what you implied.

and unemployment? when my husband became unable to work, the company put him on lay-off status. unemployment sent us $311 per week for five weeks... and is now threatening us with legal action if we do not repay one of those weeks, because his anticipated return-to-work date changed, and the government would not grant him an extention.

The company can do whatever it wants. It hired your husband. If the government did not jump in, then obviously they did not find your case good enough. I suggest finding a better lawyer. If your case realy is as bad as you make it out to be, it should not be hard to find a decent lawyer and have another go, with better results.

5. let's talk about what happens if WE go to mexico without legal documentation. we're allowed to stay there for 90 days. after 90 days, if we have not obtained a visa or other documentation from the government, we will be put in jail.

And? Mexico *is* a different country. The way we handle it has nothing to do with the way they do.

6. and let's talk about all the immigrants from mexico and other countries trying to get here LEGALLY. if amnesty is a reward for illegally coming here, where does that leave all those who are still going through the process of coming legally? it's totally unfair to them. it's as if they're being penalized for trying to do the right thing.

A setback for them then. I do not agree with granting them amnesty anyway.

i've said before and will say again. this is NOT an "immigration" issue, it is a "legal" issue.

Then actualy get opinions that are consistent with the law. The law allows for such bad things as not being granted work leave, to be required to not show certian things ect. So, if your argument is what the law says, then many of these others are not valid.

[Guest LadyC]

Again, they pay sales tax, they boost both the Mexican economy and ours by proxy, they work harder for less, ect. By proxy, they put plenty into it.

ummm, your reasoning is faulty here. sales tax has NOTHING to do with social security.

I) So, they shouldn't be driving here if they are not insured

They have to. They need to get around.

wrong again. thousands of LEGAL immigrants and citizens do not drive because they are not insured. what makes ILLEGAL immigrants special that they "have to" to get around? they can take the bus, or bum rides as well as i can.

Hmm. I must ask you to actualy list what they are "taking" and then compare to what they are giving. I would say that you would find them doing more good than harm.

have you not listened to anything being said in this forum? you are so wrong. they do far more harm than good, because they ILLEGALLY drain our resources and do NOT put back into them by way of income tax and social security. furthermore, most illegals do not earn enough money to ever pay the medical bills they incur, so our health care expenses keep rising. our educational system is failing because standards are lower in order for non-english and little-english speaking illegals to keep up. car insurance rates are on the rise again because so many illegals are driving with no insurance. somebody has to pay the price. and "somebody" happens to be the law abiding people who are in this country.

You would not say that the fact that they do work harder for less than mimum wage trumps the fact that they pay no income tax?

NO, NO, and again, NO. that HURTS our economy, it HURTS legal immigrants and citizens, and it HURTS our health care and welfare programs.

by the way, if you use the quote feature too much in one response, it renders them useless, so i'll finish later.

[Guest power mousey]

so, true, Ladyc.

Hosea...can you see!?

cheers,

power mousey

[Cyrrylia]

RESPONSE: No they are not required to learn English and no it is not our official language. The whole point is by those of us complaining, that we need to make English our national language, and require anyone that wants to become a citizen to learn it. Even if it is not our official language, there is nothing to stop immigration officials from requiring anyone that wants to become a citizen to understand English. We are calling for a change in the immigration policy.

Then this is an argument for another time. This is not a call for a change in the immigration policy, this is a call for an official language. Different thread we can discuss this.

RESPONSE: Good. My whole point is, this is America. We need to be taught American history, not Mexican history. I would also say the same about any other country. The emphasis doesn't need to be on German, Italian, French, African, Chinese, Japanese, or any other nation's history. This is America and we need to understand American history.

The argument was that this was something that happens often. It does not happen often. We are in agreement. So the original text in which I too the arguments from is, as I said, wrong.

RESPONSE: No, the fact they work harder for less than the minimum wage doesn't trump the fact they pay no income taxes. They shouldn't be allowed to work here at all. They need to be loaded up on a bus, and taken back to Mexico. Those who employ them need to be in prison.

That is a different argument. What I said was in response to your income tax argument, not the "They should not be here at all" argument. I can not argue with that, it is true. They are illegal.

The fact we pay lower prices for goods doesn't make it ok to allow people to break the law. We need to have legal residents doing that work at minimum wage or higher. I will just have to pay more for fruit and vegetables. I would also like to see these people standing around with their signs begging for money given the option of taking these type of jobs or being thrown in jail. Better yet, take them to the county line and drop them off every time they are caught. After a while, when their scam is no longer possible, they will be forced to go to work.

Actualy, you would have to pay more for practicly everything. The only thing I do not think would be affected would be miraculously, gas prices. And why do you bring the homeless into this? That is a completely different topic.

A national sales tax may not be perfect, but I will take it over income tax any time. That will force everyone to pay their taxes and will get rid of the IRS.

Another time.

RESPONSE: It may be tough to bring about such unification, but it is not impossible. We can start with the language. Make English the official language, and force everyone to learn it to hold a job. Give them a certain amount of time to come into compliance. Next, we need to stop placing everyone into groups. No more African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, etc. Stop giving preferences to such groups and let them learn to be Americans. And no, we don't need to kill them off. This nation's policies have led to these divisions.

It would not even be this easy. You can not just "let them learn to be Americans." We have different local cultures for a reason, and because the cultures are in fact, local, we can not just teach it out of them. Normaly, an immigrant will assimilate only because his culture is not represented anywhere in the country he moved to. Here, for instance, African American culture is everywhere, and there is no way to get rid of it.

Aswell, which culture do we adopt universaly? White culture? African American culture? Hispanic culture? Chinese American? Do we combine them all?

The nations policies have led to this devision by allowing freedom to do what one wants, and to pursue ones happiness. We allow these devisions because people in the past had their own culture from their country, and we were not mean enough to force them to convert. Thus, their culture only vaugly assimilated, and they still retain a completely different culture than other Americans. Do you propose to get rid of this freedom?

RESPONSE: I said once they become a citizen, they are entitled to equal benefits. All citizens are required to be paid minimum wage. If not, the employer can be sued for back wages. The argument is quite valid.

You said that a criminal does not deserve equal benifits. By criminal, you mean illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants do not have equal benifits. Thus, the argument that they do not, is not valid.

[Guest LadyC]

ok, i'm back momentarily and have little time, so i'll try to remember some of the things i wanted to address and respond to.

rules regarding flying flags (homeowners) and displaying patriotism (workplaces) didn't exist prior to 9/11. the issue was that people who OWNED their homes already, or held a job that they had had for years, were suddenly being told they could not support our country, and you have the audacity to say they should find a new home or job?

the middle school dress code rule didn't exist until two weeks ago. it is totally absurd to support such a rule as "creating a hostile enviornent." particularly when no such rules regarding red white and green (or red yellow green, whatever mexico's colours are) have NOT been implemented. and further particularly because the hostility is being created by those who squelch american's legal rights because illegals are more important.

ok, on to something else.... you obviously have no understanding of economics, perhaps you should learn a bit before continuing to talk about how minimum wage is fine or too high, and how illegals who do not pay taxes and work for below minimum wage help the economy. how old are you, if you don't mind me asking? i'm asking because if you are still in high school i figure you'll have those classes coming up soon.

regarding my husband's unemployment... what ARE you talking about? a better atty? company can do what he wants? i make it out to be so bad? HELLO! you don't have much job experience either, i assume. you asked what he earns. when he is able to work, he earns $23+ per hour. during the months of january-march he averages $2000 per week gross. his company put him on layoff status AS A FAVOR to him, so that he would be eligible to draw unemployment. although he is entitled to 26weeks of unemployment, he was drop kicked because at the time that the job gave an estimated return to work date for him, we were not aware that he would require surgery. when the company faxed in the necessary paperwork to extend it, the government chose not to.

there is no atty involved here. the only atty that i mentioned was our roommate, who is DISABLED. obviously you've never known anyone who attempted to get on disability either, have you? it doesn't matter how severe the disability is, the government denies everyone the first time, 60% of appeals, and 40% of those that have the tenacity to file a second appeal. the only hope is to pay an atty, and people who are disabled are generally not able to afford to hire one. even with an atty, the average length of time it takes to succeed in getting on unemployment is 18 months.

oh, and about the housing thing. have you never tried to rent an apartment? do you not realize that there are laws limiting the number of people who can share a bedroom? for example, a typical married couple with two daughters and one son are required by law to live in no smaller than a three bedroom home. yet illegal immigrants often have as many as ten or more individuals in a two bedroom apartment.

anyway, my husband is home. i am out of time. i really recommend you educate yourself a little bit on the various issues and how they impact our society. i'm not belittling you, it's just that you clearly do not have the knowledge to discuss this rationally, and you are choosing not to believe anything that anyone here is trying to explain to you.

[Cyrrylia]

So I am back now.

ummm, your reasoning is faulty here. sales tax has NOTHING to do with social security.

I never said it did.

wrong again. thousands of LEGAL immigrants and citizens do not drive because they are not insured. what makes ILLEGAL immigrants special that they "have to" to get around? they can take the bus, or bum rides as well as i can.

And thousands of Legal immigrants drive regardless.

And for one, while yes, they could ride a bus, or bum rides, in some cases, not many are going to pick up a strange mexican guy on the street. Also, buses do not go everywhere.

have you not listened to anything being said in this forum? you are so wrong. they do far more harm than good, because they ILLEGALLY drain our resources and do NOT put back into them by way of income tax and social security. furthermore, most illegals do not earn enough money to ever pay the medical bills they incur, so our health care expenses keep rising. our educational system is failing because standards are lower in order for non-english and little-english speaking illegals to keep up. car insurance rates are on the rise again because so many illegals are driving with no insurance. somebody has to pay the price. and "somebody" happens to be the law abiding people who are in this country.

Okay. Let us check all this. Obviously they do not put into income tax...usualy. Nor do they put into social security...usualy. You do know that some purchase elligal documents so that they appear legal, which means they act like legal immigrants. They get their minimum wage, you get your income tax and social security. And we still get our cheap products for those that do not.

Urg this has never happened before. I just now, got a date for prom, so my mood has changed mid argument. Meaning I no longer care too much to prove anything. So, instead of detailed cynycism infused arguments, you get links to graphs.

Auto insurance rates rise lower than normal inflation. Case closed: http://www.iii.org/media/industry/addition...005autooutlook/

On health care. The industrialized world's median health care cost per capita is 2193, and the rest of the industrialized world provides health care for ALL of its citizens. Our median health care cost per capita is 5267, and not everyone is even insured, so saying that an extra 12 million people is the cause for double the cost of health care is wrong.

I am done with this for now. I no longer feel like arguing. I feel like dancing. Maybe when I feel less happy, I will come back. Tommorow or something. Maybe even later on today.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Cyrrylia

[Razberry]

I've read all the recent posts, and as my emotions skyrocketed (reading cyrrylia's posts, in which she obviously hasn't a clue what's happening), I was so ready to post my own 2 cents and try to get a bit of sense thru to her.

However, after her last post, I have to say "we need to check our priorities people! It is the prom, after all!"

Maybe she'll be thinking more rationally in a year, or a decade. She's a child. I can't pick on a kid. Although, if it were my own kid with this mentality...hmmmm. I'll have to think about it.