Scripture Alone

[apothanein kerdos]

Butero said,

The reason that I believe that we must go by scripture alone is the simple matter that I believe it to be God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:16,17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

John Henry Newman refutes this in an 1884 essay entitled "Inspiration in its Relation

to Revelation." He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument

whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for,

although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be

sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover,

the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.

"Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the

Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books

of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers,

then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage

proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the NT were not

necessary for a rule of faith."

Furthermore, Protestants typically read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context. When read

in the context of the surrounding passages, one discovers that Paul

[chrismarc]

EricH said,

The veneration of Mary is anti-scriptural....

Wrong. Scripture tells us to venerate her. (from Luke 1:26-49)

" And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called

Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David;

and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of

grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women...And the angel said to her:

Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to

thy word.

And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in

her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice,

and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And

whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all

generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to

me; and holy is his name. "

All Catholic Christian beliefs about Mary are basically rooted in God's revelation in the Bible.

The Bible presents Mary as a person whom God set apart to play a vital role in his plan of

salvation. God honored Mary by eternally predestining her to be the mother of the Savior -

the one through whom God himself would enter into human history. What greater gift or

dignity could God give to a human being? This honor given to Mary reveals the dignity of

all women; a woman is more important in God's saving plan than any angel or other

spiritual being . . . God had chosen Mary, . . . but her response to God's call was crucial.

She freely chose to accept God's plan for her life . . . Catholics honor Mary because of

this great faith and obedience.

Mary is always glorifying God the Father and Jesus, never herself, for this is her purpose

and calling. All of the Marian doctrines are Christocentric. They were promulgated in the

first place so that Jesus Christ would be glorified, not Mary. And this is why Catholics have

venerated her above all creatures, and why any Christian can indeed "relate to" and

"identify with" her, because she glorifies and imitates God, and that is what all serious

Christians want to do (and are commanded to do) too.

To not venerate Mary is against Scripture and most certainly hurts Jesus, her Son.

[chrismarc]

apothanein kerdos said,

I mean, seriously, can either one of you possibly come up with something

original or at least give us your sources?

Truth is truth and usually i do give the URL, but i see you

found it no problem. Now if you'd just read it with an open

heart for the Truth and not just dismiss it as a typical anti-

Catholic (the universal Church founded by Jesus on Peter).

[chrismarc]

Butero said,

I believe the burden is on you to show in scripture where we are to accept

doctrine that goes contrary to the 66 books that make up the cannon of the Bible.

All doctrine is supported by Scripture.

How do we have the Bible today?

Did it just fall out of the sky?

Who "put" it together as the Bible?

[apothanein kerdos]

apothanein kerdos said,

I mean, seriously, can either one of you possibly come up with something

original or at least give us your sources?

Truth is truth and usually i do give the URL, but i see you

found it no problem. Now if you'd just read it with an open

heart for the Truth and not just dismiss it as a typical anti-

Catholic (the universal Church founded by Jesus on Peter).

I talk to people who are honest, not liars.

[chrismarc]

Butero said,

... there was a new book found called the gospel of Judas. It contradicts

the cannon of God's Word.

How do you know it contradicts the Bible?

Why was it not included in the Bible in the 1st place?

[chrismarc]

I talk to people who are honest, not liars.

Are you calling me a liar?!

[apothanein kerdos]

I talk to people who are honest, not liars.

Are you calling me a liar?!

Yes, that's what plagarism is. You did it in your post to EricH after I had already called you out for it.

[chrismarc]

apothanein kerdos said,

All sola scriptura, as the reformers taught it, means is that the Bible is

the final authority on all things.

If the Bible is the final authority, why are we even arguing?

Shouldn't it be clear? Why are there 35,000 denominations

all claiming to have it right? Why is there such confusion

amongst folks on this forum, if the Bible is the final arbiter?

Why do most non-Catholics not believe in the Real Presence

of Jesus in Holy Communion (Eucharist), clearly taught by Jesus

and the Apostles in Scripture?

In other words, tradition, new findings, or anything else that contradicts scripture

simply is not truth. The problem Catholics have is that your tradition contradicts certain

aspects of scripture, therefore you have to choose which one is more powerful and more important.

Sacred Scripture and Tradition support each other.

Instead, there were qualitative methods and tests to determine what was and wasn't scripture. There was also inspired and cannonized up front, and other books that were not considerd on an equal level but still of importance.

Who performed these methods and tests? How?

[chrismarc]

Yes, that's what plagarism is. You did it in your post to EricH

after I had already called you out for it.

What quoting Scripture now is plagarism?

Plagiarism is not a lie per se:

To lie: To present false information with the intention of deceiving.

My intention is to communicate the teachings of the Church

without having to re-write every little detail on my own, of

which i may not be able to do as well as the person whose

writing i'm using. As i said, i usually do provide a link or URL

from where it came from.

Again, my intention is not to deceive, but to explain the

Catholic viewpoint and the info being shared is not false.

i am sorry you think i'm a liar, this was not my intention.

Edited April 28, 2006 by chrismarc