Saints in tribulation

[Guest man]

I WAS pre-trib for much of my christian walk but have come to the conclusion that it is just not there and is an unsound doctrine, originating with demons.

1Ti 4:1

[Guest man]

When the wrath of God falls, he has always gotten his people out of the way.

ex. Noah

ex. Lot

future ex. the rapture

He will not have his bride go through his own wrath. That would be wife abuse.

It must be noted that Noah and Lot were still present at the time of the wrath. They weren't taken to some spirital kingdom then brought back. They were there and witnessed that wrath. If God was able to shield them, what makes you think He will not shield us?

[larryt]

Jesus said: "In this world ye SHALL have tribulation...." I'm not prepared to call Him a liar!

Incidentally, the 'rapture theory' is quite novel. It has only been believed for less than 200 years.......

This is a lie. The rapture was not invented in the 1800s. It is not novel. It is biblical. Have you not read any early church writings that are not forerunners to the Catholic church?

It was well known after 100 ad that anyone who did not believe the rapture was pre-tribulation and the millennium was after that... was teaching false doctrine.

It is false doctrine to deny the rapture and think the church is going through it.

When Jesus made that quote, he was talking about our trials and tribulations in this world because of satan and our own fallen human nature, not the wrath of God.

When the wrath of God falls, he has always gotten his people out of the way.

ex. Noah

ex. Lot

future ex. the rapture

He will not have his bride go through his own wrath. That would be wife abuse.

Hi LfG,

Again you fail to give even one scripture and now you appeal to the early church fathers and fail to give even one quote.

I do have some quotes. Please bear with me these are quite lengthy.

Irenaeus: (AD. 120-202)

"'And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,' that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: 'And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming.'"[irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 3]

"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: 'And in the midst of the week,' he says, 'the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.' Now three years and six months constitute the half-week."[irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 4]

"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord

[Guest man]

When Noah enetered the Ark the Ark was his shield but at no time did he witness the events going on outside, he could hear the people begging for mercy and to be let into the Ark but he was not about to interfere with God. The example of Lot was also similar, he and his family were instructed not to look back at Sodom & Gomorrah or else they would be consumed (Gen. 19:17).

You don't have to see something to witness it.

As for the 144,000, I never said I was one of them. You assumed.

Rev. 7:3 states they are not to hurt the earth, sea, or trees. What's your point?

Is the antichrist identified before or during the tribulation?

[Guest]

But a question I have about the "rapture" (and one that I hope somebody can "shed some light on") is: What about the earth? Wouldn't the earth be knocked off its access or something if so much matter was taken away from it suddenly?

Greetings Buck,

Have you ever seen a satellite photo? Did you see people walking around on the planet? I don't think so. I read a statistic a while back, that if all the people of the earth were put in one area, each given a 3'X3' square in which to live, they would not fill the area the size of Texas. We are perhaps like large molecules when compared with the size of the earth. Miniscule to the max. The earth would have no ill effect by even every living person that ever lived on this planet to be taken from it in a moment's notice.

Does that answer your question?

And YES there is a rapture, but not as some believe.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Hey Dad Ernie, not to be argumentative but you are mislead.

The Population of the world, as estimated on 10/15/06 ( http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html ), was 6,550,453,624.

Assuming that you arranged the population into families of four, in a modest 3 bedroom home, on a lot measuring 50 ft. by 100 ft., you would need:

50 x 100 = 5000 squate feet lot size

6,5550,453,624 / 4 = 1,637,613,406 number of lots

1,637,613,406 X 5000 = land area required to house

world population in modest home and lots = 8,188,067,030,000 square feet

a square mile is 5280 x 5280 = 27,878,400 square feet

8,188,067,030,000 / 27,878,400 = number of square miles

necessary to contain the lots and homes, 293,706

Texas Land area = 261,797 square miles ( http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html )

So you see, 90% of the world population could fit into texas

in 3 bedroom homes, with a front and back yard, much more generous

than a 3 foot square. Make those two story homes, and we could give

them even more room.

So, while you are correct that we are a small influence on the planet, you UNDERSTATED the case, lol.

[Joshua-777]

Yes, Honestly I feel Christians suffer more, and are going to suffer, but I would rather suffer and overcome a mountain in the Lord, than stumble over a little hill. As far as the rapture, I do believe in it, and I do know we are going to go through some crazy tribulations. We will suffer, as far as the rapture, yes there will be saints to come out of the tribulation period, it could mean that they came to Christ after the rapture, and where slain, as I feel it is, or it could mean that we are going to go through some crazy things in the tribulation, Heres 2 verses I found that makes me believe in a more pre or mid tribulation rapture.

Mat 24:22 And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.

refering to the great tribulation ahead, This I do feel is why, The Lord is Going to pour out his wrath on the earth, for the elects sake, whom he has chosen, he has shortened the days of suffering. We will suffer, but I dont feel we are going to go through the bowls of Gods wrath, and the Woes.

[larryt]

Hi LfG,

Again you fail to give even one scripture and now you appeal to the early church fathers and fail to give even one quote.

LT

Hi larryt,

Unfortunately nothing you have posted above provides any argument to oppose the rapture either. What your information implies, is a lack of knowledge concerning the ministry of the 144,000. There is nothing in scripture that argues against a new following of Christians being formed following the aftermath of the Rapture. In fact, the advent of the 144,000 and the two witnesses during the Great Tribulation signifies the rebuilding of the Church during the Great Tribulation via the world wide revival.

Furthermore, the details of the second coming of Christ and the "Armies of Heaven" has been taught for centuries, that the members of His army are the Saints (Messianic Jews & Gentiles). The second coming weighs solely on the Orthodox and or Hasidic Jews finally repenting for their rejection of Christ and ultimately calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, to which He comes in victory at the battle of Armageddon. It is not the Antichrist that determines the Second Coming of Christ, it is the repentance of the Jews for the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of the Generation of their forefathers in the time of Christ's First Coming.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Then Christ declares the condition of His Second Coming to the Nation of Israel in Mat. 23:39

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Peace

CJ

Hi CJ,

I have asked you and anyone else to point to one scripture and in a cohesive way show how it is possible that there is an elite group that will not have to suffer persecution when persecution is prised amoung God's people. We should be looking forward to the time we can give our lives to testify for the glory of God.

Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Lu 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man

[Guest Murf]

I know there have probably been dozens of posts to WB about the rapture. I have read views of the rapture. Some think it is a hoax and was not a part of discussed theology until the 1800's. There are books out along these lines (i.e. The Rapture Plot). Those who believe rapture doctrine have differing views on when the rapture might occur (pre-, mid-, or post-trib). Many who believe in rapture doctrine think that God would take us away before times get hard on earth and Christians suffer severe persecution. That God would not let us suffer. In the event that we do go thru intense suffering, does this mean we should forsake God? God forbid. I found the following cut & paste on a website and thought it was interesting and something to consider:

Saints in Tribulation

So God won

[eric]

Wow, Murf, welcome to worthy boards, I see you are a first time poster.

I don't suppose biscuit would mind being called Rev Einstein, but it seems a strange way to introduce yourself to a forum on a strange board. Still we are all different are we not.

About the book. It's no wonder it's popular , it describes everything that people want to here about heaven......and hell..... and in between.

Stick around, Murf and get to know a few people on this board, we're here to edify and be edified in God's word and we are all all the same and we are all different, if you get my drift. Call into chat and meet some real 'down to earth' christians.

cheers.

[ayin jade]

I would like to recommend one the most inspirational books I have ever read about the rapture and the coming of the Lord, besides the wonderful Word of God which is number one.......and that book is called: "Heaven is so real" by Choo Thomas.

I do hope that I opened a new can of worms by saying that.................recommending this book..."Heaven is so Real" is my way of provoking someone to righteousness............which by the way.....is scriptural!

Hmmm. Im not sure of that. On the authors website I found these statements:

Heaven is so Real is our Lord Jesus