Saints in tribulation

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I never hear more wacky theories in my entire life than I hear on this forum...this isn't worth my time

Just because it doesn't agree with your view of Eschatology doesn't mean it's wacky or off base.

I haven't seen you address my question yet.

How many Ressurections of the Just are there?

Let me define the position I hold biblically;

There are actually three Ressurections.

There is the Ressurection of the Firstfruits, Jesus Christ. Which has already happened and sealed the promise of our eventual Ressurection. That is unless we tarry until He come.

1Co

[whirlwind]

'Shlomo'

Many of your Brothers believe that the wrath of God only comes after the days of tribulation (which according to Jesus don't begin until the middle of the 70th week and don't last to the end of the week because they are "cut short").

This leads to a natural (in my opinion and the opinion of many others) timeline of

- 70th week begins with peace treaty

- Days of tribulation begin at the middle of the week following the abomination of desolation (which are the wrath of man)

- Days of tribulation are cut short before the week ends

- First resurrection takes place (which includes the translation - 'rapture' - of the Church)

- Then the Day of the LORD (which is the wrath of God) begins after the Church has been raptured

That literally makes it Post-trib and Pre-wrath !!

shalom

This has been an interesting discussion all of you (or as we say it down here in the deep south - ya'll) have been having. Allow me to add another element to the mix.

I believe the word tells us that we will be here during all of it....including the time of His wrath. But, as He tells us:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence fo the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

His wrath is for those that follow Satan....not His children, those that wait for the true Christ. We also know that Satan can't harm us during his tribulation if we don't believe his lies:

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Scripture points to the fact that we will all be here and will be tested:

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People:' and they shall say, 'The Lord is my God.'

So....I believe we will be here but won't be harmed. He will protect as as He did Daniel in the lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children in the fire, etc.....if we don't fall for the deceit of Satan. We have to know that he comes first pretending to be Christ.

.........Whirlwind

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

disagree...that is true of Tribulation saints, not the Church

What makes them of a class of Grace any less forgiven than you and I?

"...the Church is resurrected first, seven years before Israel...

Yes, but line upon line and precept upon precept tells us that Christ has torn down the wall between Gentile and Jew treating them as one class in Himself according to His Grace. The Jew never leaves behind His Jewishness and neither the Gentile his Gentility. However they are now under One Kingdom having One King and One Savior as well as One God. The Jew first and then the Greek.

What makes the Jew have to endure what you have entitled God's Wrath and not us? Is God not Omniscient? Does He not know whom are His own? Has He not promised to Graft the Jew back into the Tree if they leave behind unbelief?

Scripture doesn't speak of two events where the rapture is concerned.

1Co

[Yahsway]

Amen Dave! Many Christians are looking for an escape but it is in not loving our lives, even unto death, that saints gain "patient endurance" Rev 13:10

these christians who believe and teach the pre-trib see themselves as being "seperate from israel", however, these same people call themselves "the saints" of the New Covenant- that is until John speaks of the Beast making war with the saints to overcome them(Rev 13:7) Then they refuse the title. Then they Give it to the Jews.

Oh Yes, the church flys away, and the Jews go thru the trib and then and only then do the Jewish peple come to believe as the Christians do.

Well if this theory was true, then after the Holocaust, Jews should have become Believes in Droves. But in opposition to this errant "wrath brings conversion" notion, Romans 2:4 tells us that it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance.

And the Jewish people will not see Yeshua and then believe. The plan is they will believe and then they will see Him. And they will believe when those called a "wild olive branch" fulfill their divine mandate and Provoke them to Jealousy."

Yes we will be changed at the Last, uttermost trumpet. But until then we will have to wait UNTIL the man of Lawlessness is REVEALED before we HEAR that sound.

[Matthitjah]

Bless you YZ,

You seem a little frustrated.

Were having a legitimate discussion here not an argument.

The Trump in Revelation 4 is a misnomer in this discussion. John isn't typifying the Rapture by being called up. The argument goes that he isn't seeing the Church on the face of earth. Therefore the Church is no longer there after this point. However he spends time between heaven and earth. Viewing all things from both vantages as they unfold.

Do you adhere to an allegorian method of interpretation of all Scripture?

That is what is being done with the current scripture in Revelation 4.

If Johns being called up is a picture of the Rapture? Why does he continue to go back and forth between heaven and earth?

If a supposed absence of the Church from earthly scenes infers that there is an absence of the Church down here during that period. The inverse must also be true.

Let's take a look at that last Trump that Paul is speaking about and the Mystery of God he is laying out.

Re

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

this is an impasse, you won't convince me and I'm not going to convince you....but I'll smile when you see the Lord before Daniel's 70th Week!

Point taken.

Since we have now arrived at this point.

I think the original point that I was trying to clarify and hopefully reach was that arguing so forcefully and stating that folks who hold a different viewpoint are ingorant or even less educated in the Word is pointless.

So with this new founded realization, can we tone it down a bit.

This is a discussion in which there is something operating above your viewpoint and that is the Love of God. It trumps all arguments and is the Bond of Unity and Peace.

I also don't believe I will change my viewpoint. Would it surprise you to know that I once held the same view that you do? However I was persuaded that my view was wrong through scriptural support.

However I think it is pointless to argue as well and especially forcefully.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

but, regardless, the best pastor/teachers still share my view, regardless of fickle human opinions that come and go....the early church also believed the rapture, up to about 300 AD

Actually the belief that you hold did not appear in the Church until about 400 years ago. It is a reletaively new Eschatological belief.

Peace,

Dave

[Massorite]

144,000 evangelists. There is not one place in the bible where the word of God calls the 144,000 chosen Jews, evangelists. And the only place they are spoken of as being in, is Israel. There is no biblical proof that they will be traveling around the world re-evangelizing a new body of Christ.

but it is strongly inferred...Revelation 7 cites their converts as "too numerous too count"

the Church has no part in Daniel's 70th Week...Daniel's prophecy was revealed to the Jews, not the Church..."70 sevens are allotted to YOUR PEOPLE" (Daniel 9), it amazes me how people try to put the Church into that period

You miss a very important point. We are the people of God. We are Daniel's People. We are the wild Olive tree grafted in. We are mystery Israel. While the Jew by blood are still the apple of God's eye. Nobody gets to go to heaven unless they have excepted Christ.

I don't abide by any inferences, leading to, pointing to, suggesting or any other sort of vague assumptions or unclear scripture. If the bible doesn't specifically say it then it is nothing but an assumption with no scripture to clearly re-enforce the concept.

If the church has no part in Daniel's 70th Week. Prove it. Show me some scripture where the word of God says " The church has no part with Daniel's 70th week" The whole of the bible is about the people of God. God see's things from the beginning and we need to remember that we all came from dirt. There are five colors of dirt in the world and five colors of people in the world. They are Red, White, Black, Brown and Yellow. The Jews are kin to us and we are kin to them. In fact all of the people in the world are related to one another by blood and by dirt.

How do you know that those converts in Rev 7 are the converts of the 144,000? Can you count the number of all Christan's that have been killed for the sake of Christ for the past two thousand years? I think not. The Christan's who died during the first 250 years of the church died suffering great tribulation. Don't you think that those Christan's are part of the number that can not be counted? What about the 250,000 + who died suffering great tribulation for the name of Christ just last year?

Where does the bible say that the number that can not be counted are the converts of the 144,000?

Here is a reality check. As we speak man is capable of counting up into the trillions and beyond. Today there are only about 6.2 billion people living on the earth both saved and unsaved. Since the number standing before the throne of God is a number that no man can count we are talking about more people standing before throne then there living on the earth today. According to the pre-trib concept the resurrection takes place before the 144,000 thousand become active evangelists. Which means that there would be even less people living on earth at that time since there are between 2 and 3 billion Christan's on the earth today.

Let's face it. The very fact that man can count to a trillion shows that the "number that no MAN can count" is not speaking of the converts of the 144,000 and is speaking of more then man can count up to which is more then a trillion and far more then 6.2 billion. It is an utterly unrealistic concept to think that the 144,000 converted a number that no man can count. What is realistic is the concept that the "number that no man can count" in chapter 7 is speaking of all Christan's who have died suffering great tribulation for the past 2000 years.

[Massorite]

You miss a very important point. We are the people of God. We are Daniel's People.

Romans 11 makes it clear the Jews are "enemies of the gospel", and that Israel will be hardened "until the full number of Gentiles has come in"

The Church wasn't part of the first 483 years, and they won't be part of the final seven.

The church wasn't apart of the first 483 and they wont be apart of the final 7 huh?Deep,good theory,just kidding I hope that is not all your going on.Well I guess pretribbers have to cling to some thing they really don't have much to go on.What if I told you the church wasn't apart of the old covenant therefore they are not going to be part of the new one?You would think I had lost it ,Right?Now you see how you seem when you say some thing as absurd as what your statement was.Find some thing more concrete than ridiculous assumptions please.

OK! So what about a Jew who has converted over to Christianity? Are they still an enemy to the gospel just because they are a Jew? Besides you forgot that the Gospel was preached by Jesus to the Jew first and then to the gentle and when Jesus preached to the Jew first many were saved. Shall I show you where that is written in the bible or can you look it up yourself. The Jewish people are not enemies of the gospel because they are Jewish. Those that choose not to believe are enemies of the gospel because they don't believe.

You should get your facts straight before you speak. It is less embarrassing.

[AnotherTraveler]

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:25 (KJV)

fullness 4138

G4138

πλήρωμα

plērōma

play'-ro-mah

From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Fullness does not reference any numerical element. As a rule, God uses time, not numbers of believers, as a measure. That's why the bible says, fullness of time........, there is a time for everything....., and the time came that...

Jesus referred many times to the time element, in that in a time when we think not the son of man comes.

I simply believe God...sadly, you don't, or you simply enjoy displaying ignorance...I haven't figured out which

Is that kind of attitude necessary?