What comes First

[Smalcald]

I think the problem for many is that concept is basically un-American.

We have things because we earn them, we achieve because we work hard, we have education because we studied hard, etc, our basic concept (and for a country it is a good one), is an ideal of earning things because we deserve them and we deserve them through our efforts.

[Guest jckduboise]

And continuing that thought. Anyone who is aware and reads the Word knows that good works does not equal salvation.

[st. Worm]

jckduboise says:

And continuing that thought. Anyone who is aware and reads the Word knows that good works does not equal salvation.

SW says:

Based on many of the responses, you would not think that. I think mine and Smalcald's point is that decision theology itself makes faith a good work. If I decide to "accept" Christ then it is my work that secures my salvation and faith is no longer a gift but a result of my "well informed decision." Justification by faith, the issue on which the church stands or falls, was never intended to make the sinner's decision the focal point of salvation or the Christian life that follows.

[Guest jckduboise]

jckduboise says:

And continuing that thought. Anyone who is aware and reads the Word knows that good works does not equal salvation.

SW says:

Based on many of the responses, you would not think that. I think mine and Smalcald's point is that decision theology itself makes faith a good work. If I decide to "accept" Christ then it is my work that secures my salvation and faith is no longer a gift but a result of my "well informed decision." Justification by faith, the issue on which the church stands or falls, was never intended to make the sinner's decision the focal point of salvation or the Christian life that follows.

Please elaborate. I am not a theologin (sp?). All I know is that if I am trying to get salvation by doing good works but do not have Christ as my focal point then I am only doing good works and my reward is here on earth not in heaven.

[st. Worm]

Jackie says:

Please elaborate. I am not a theologin (sp?). All I know is that if I am trying to get salvation by doing good works but do not have Christ as my focal point then I am only doing good works and my reward is here on earth not in heaven.

sw says:

Jackie, no Christian would openly acknowledge they are saved by their works, but if we say it was our decision to be saved because we made a smarter or better decision than the other guy (or gal) how is that not a scheme of good works? Same for those who say "I was saved because I chose to come to Christ."

However, when I acknowledge the gospel that says Jesus died for my sins and therefore I am right with God, someone will always say that was based on some wise choice or decision I have made yet we know the Bible says my faith was a gift of which Jesus is the author and perfector of. If it were left to my choice, I would never believe the good news nor would anyone else. Even the good works that follow are not mine but Christ's, for it is no longer I who live but He who lives in me. Anything else is just salvation by good works, the same idea many of us are critical of Roman Catholics of teaching.

sw

[EricH]

jckduboise says:

And continuing that thought. Anyone who is aware and reads the Word knows that good works does not equal salvation.

SW says:

Based on many of the responses, you would not think that. I think mine and Smalcald's point is that decision theology itself makes faith a good work. If I decide to "accept" Christ then it is my work that secures my salvation and faith is no longer a gift but a result of my "well informed decision." Justification by faith, the issue on which the church stands or falls, was never intended to make the sinner's decision the focal point of salvation or the Christian life that follows.

That would only be true if our decision was made in our own power

[st. Worm]

Eric says:

"That would only be true if our decision was made in our own power"

sw says:

If we are making the "our decision", how could it be mean't in any other way?

[Guest jckduboise]

Eric says:

"That would only be true if our decision was made in our own power"

sw says:

If we are making the "our decision", how could it be mean't in any other way?

St. Worm,

I have yet to see where free will comes into play here? We have the choice not to accept God's calling. So if we have that choice we obviously have the choice to accept it.

And what I am hearing from you (I believe) is that because I made the choice, with the free will God gave to me, to accept His salvation then I am claiming good works? I don't see how that could be. In fact I didn't know a thing about good works until after I had made the choice to accept His offer. I just knew that my heart was for Christ. How can that make me a person "performing" good works?

[st. Worm]

jackie says:

St. Worm,

I have yet to see where free will comes into play here? We have the choice not to accept God's calling. So if we have that choice we obviously have the choice to accept it.

And what I am hearing from you (I believe) is that because I made the choice, with the free will God gave to me, to accept His salvation then I am claiming good works? I don't see how that could be. In fact I didn't know a thing about good works until after I had made the choice to accept His offer. I just knew that my heart was for Christ. How can that make me a person "performing" good works?

sw says:

Well Jackie if salvation is based on the act of your will while someone else's rejection of the gospel is an act of their will, then your decision is a good work. You made the right choice because of your inner goodness or because you were smarter or whatever. You made the right choice because your free will was somehow superior than the unsaved person's. At some point you have to deal with why some believe and others don't after being confronted with the gospel. If to believe is truly an act of our own will then its a work and rewarded with salvation. And with regard to the original question this why we cannot say the "Christian life" can ever occur before faith and salvation. As Smalcald keeps saying: he did not have that ability and frankly neither does anyone else.

sw

[Guest jckduboise]

St. Worm,

I am not sure what you are getting at, still. I never have claimed to be better or smarter than anyone. What I do claim is that I chose not to ignore God knocking on my hearts door. Am I getting the gist of what you are saying is that I believe I have come to Christ because I performed a good work in my decision?

The good works I spoke of earlier consisted of the person who prays for an audience, the person who pays tything and shares what he gave to others so that he looks good in the eyes of man. The person who let's his left hand know what his left hand is doing. You know, a Sadducee or Pharasee.

And if your opinion is that anyone who states they came to God by choice is bragging about good works, so be it. That is your opinion and I won't try to change it.

That is the beauty of this forum. We all have opinions and are entitled to them.

God bless