What comes First

[Guest jckduboise]

One other thing on this subject. God gives all throughout the history and the future of the bible chance after chance to come to Him. If we didn't have a choice to begin with why go so far as the Tribulation?

[st. Worm]

Jackie says:

One other thing on this subject. God gives all throughout the history and the future of the bible chance after chance to come to Him. If we didn't have a choice to begin with why go so far as the Tribulation?

sw says:

Not really. Hundreds of millions have lived and died on this earth without ever hearing the good news. They have no more heard about Jesus than they have watched American Idol or driven a car. They were given no choice but to perish in their sins as choice is defined today.

But Jackie, would you have a problem praying the following prayer? If so, we have no disagreement.

Lord Jesus, I give you thanks for saving me from the terrible wrath of God which is to come. You have saved me in spite of my absolute wretchedness. I have nothing to bring to you but my sins and yet you have gone to the cross and paid the penalty for me. Nothing in my hands I bring and yet you have freely given me salvation. I give you thanks Lord for this salvation you have given to me, the gift of your grace and based on nothing I have done.

Amen

sw

[Guest jckduboise]

Jackie says:

One other thing on this subject. God gives all throughout the history and the future of the bible chance after chance to come to Him. If we didn't have a choice to begin with why go so far as the Tribulation?

sw says:

Not really. Hundreds of millions have lived and died on this earth without ever hearing the good news. They have no more heard about Jesus than they have watched American Idol or driven a car. They were given no choice but to perish in their sins as choice is defined today.

But Jackie, would you have a problem praying the following prayer? If so, we have no disagreement.

Lord Jesus, I give you thanks for saving me from the terrible wrath of God which is to come. You have saved me in spite of my absolute wretchedness. I have nothing to bring to you but my sins and yet you have gone to the cross and paid the penalty for me. Nothing in my hands I bring and yet you have freely given me salvation. I give you thanks Lord for this salvation you have given to me, the gift of your grace and based on nothing I have done.

Amen

sw

Amen

[EricH]

Eric says:

"That would only be true if our decision was made in our own power"

sw says:

If we are making the "our decision", how could it be mean't in any other way?

I probably should not have raised this as I don't want to hijack the thread. But if our ability to choose God was based soley on our efforts then it would be our own work. But, the way I see it, our choice for God is only made possible by His opening our eyes and enabling us to so choose. Thus it is His work, not ours

[Guest jckduboise]

Eric says:

"That would only be true if our decision was made in our own power"

sw says:

If we are making the "our decision", how could it be mean't in any other way?

I probably should not have raised this as I don't want to hijack the thread. But if our ability to choose God was based soley on our efforts then it would be our own work. But, the way I see it, our choice for God is only made possible by His opening our eyes and enabling us to so choose. Thus it is His work, not ours

And an amen to that also..

Thank you gentlemen, it has been enlightening.

Good day and God bless

[st. Worm]

Eric says:

I probably should not have raised this as I don't want to hijack the thread. But if our ability to choose God was based soley on our efforts then it would be our own work.

sw says:

Yup, you probably should not have brought it up without also saying that the "eye opening" that enables us to choose is not given to all lest someone thinks this ability is given to all men.

Actually I think it still has a bearing on the original post since the Christian life is not possible until the monergistic regeneration of being born again work of the Spirit takes place that brings the spiritually dead to life.

[Smalcald]

We only have free will for the bad, the good that we do if it is really good in the sight of God, can only come from God. Our will to accept God is God's will working in us, and I think we actually all come pretty close to agreeing on that. Our will to push God away to reject His grace is from us and will condemn us this is our free will. We cannot call God down from heaven at our will. The issue worm and I are addressing is the language of decision and choice, that faith is a choice that I make because of something in me, or my thought process, thus faith itself becomes a work and about us, when it has nothing to do with us.

This is hard though, as it goes against our basic nature, particularly our basic nature as Americans. We work hard, we are smart, ergo we deserve the just rewards of our efforts, those who are lazy, those who are mean those who are evil justly deserve punishment or lack of reward, the Christian formulation does not work this way though. God condemns all equally, all mouths must be stopped according to Paul, let go with the excuses let go with the proving your merit before God, and put your total faith only in what Christ has already done. This is a uniquely Christian concept; no other faith shares this concept.

I still struggle with it, but I must say that when I do let go of my own efforts and simply forget about myself and focus on Christ alone, I find that I do better and am more obedient to His Word, and have less internal conflict.

[mike2]

[quote name='Smalcald' date

If we go down the path of thinking that I made the decision to call Christ into my life, we have a big problem with pride sneaking into our spiritual life, and an even bigger problem with taking our eyes off Christ alone and what He has already done, meaning faith in Christ alone. I mean I see it in my Congregation every day, if I am honest, I see it in myself. People really actually think they are righteous and good and this somehow saves them, as if my puny attempts at obedience gets me some special place in the eye of God. They think that they are good because they decided to come to Christ (and this is in my own pride if I really admit to it), as if it was a good deal for Christ that they decided to accept Him, when in fact just the inverse is true, we are like worthless worms nothing more, Christ's compassion is just beyond words.

[mike2]

Sorry smallcald...

pushed the wrong button (heh,heh) , looks like the last post was all yours.

Mine is the last part after the word qoute

mike2

[Guest NewPilgrim]

1Cor 10:13 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."* 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now *all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I asked myself the same question many times b4 I was saved. To the point where I came to the conclusion that actually, there was no right or selfless reason to come to God and in doing so I essentially wrote myself off, even though the idea appealed to me that God should exist. Both before and after I was saved, God brought to my attention 1Cor 10:13 from numerous unconnected sources. It was only after the glorious day of my salvation that I really understood why. It doesnt matter WHY you want to turn to God, or WHY you want to worship, what matters is that you DO turn to him, that you DO love and worship him and that you do it with a sincere heart. Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith, we are saved by grace THROUGH faith and this not of ourselves, but it is a gift from God and not of works lest any man shall boast. Salvation is a work of God IN you. Seek him out, if you genuinely long for him, whatever your reason, HE will be the hand that works in you and this he is fully able to do. Tis no shameful thing to fear an eternal condemnation, it is a fearful thing indeed.