Adam Pre-Fall

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings APO,

I was wondering when you were going to show up.

It seems you are attempting to say:

1) Adam was inherently sinful

Please see my response to EricH

2) The flesh is lesser than the spirit

Are you saying it is not? If so, I'm afraid that is VERY HERETICAL.

3) Adam was made to God's standard but not perfect and therefore God's standard is less than perfection

To answer you and Tess on this. God never looked upon man as being "very good", but at the end of the 6th day, He looked upon all His hands had created and saw that it was very good (where I added - for His purposes - and for which you accuse me of adding to His Word, yet it is consistent with the rest of the scriptures). In connection with this, I asked you if "East of Eden" was ANY LESS PERFECT than Eden was, and if so, then you are overlooking a very important part of God's creation.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

Considering that it was God who inspired the writes of the scriptures, it would seem to me that had He intended to refer to ALL His creation as PERFECT, that he would have used the following word:

Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}

from 08552; TWOT - 2522d; adj

AV - without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6,

uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3; 91

1) complete, whole, entire, sound

1a) complete, whole, entire

1b) whole, sound, healthful

1c) complete, entire (of time)

1d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity

1e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact

(neuter adj/subst)

There are other words God could have used to ensure we understood a "perfect" creation, but He did not. What purpose does it serve to pursue the idea that Adam was "perfect". We are told in James 1:15 when lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin. Did Jesus experience this "lust"? Of course not. Are you attributing the same "goodness" to Adam that you attribute to Christ? I think you had better change your doctrinal understanding.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

Are you saying it is not? If so, I'm afraid that is VERY HERETICAL.

This is all I needed. As I stated I don't debate two things:

1) People who don't respond to everything, as you once again did. You are STILL ignoring the Hebrew translation

2) Heresy, what you just said is Gnostic. The thing is, you will not find a single scripture and/or Church father that says the teaching of flesh and spirit being equally important and on the same ontological level as being heresy. In fact, that's what all the early church leaders taught. It's also in the writings of Paul. Teaching that the spirit takes a higher ontological seat than the flesh is inherently Gnostic, which is heretical. As I stated, I don't give heresy the time of day. So, good day to you.

[EricH]

The idea that the flesh is inherently evil, finds its roots in Gnostic thought rather than in the Bible. The flesh became sinful after the fall. Man was actually pronouced good by God (as was all creation).

Greetings EricH,

To answer you and Tess on this particulary subject regarding Adam. I have never once said that the "flesh" is inherently EVIL. I have said on many occasions that it is WEAK. It has no inherent life within itself, such as God, Jesus or the angels. LIFE IS IN THE SPIRIT. The flesh is weak and easily tempted, and as can be seen with Adam and with all of us, WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST TO OVERCOME SIN, we FAIL! Please do not attribute to what I have said, false attributes.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

So you are saying that God created them flawed, not evil. And that this flaw was the flesh. The flesh was not evil, but was created by God with an inclination to disobey Him? It seems that you are also holding that it is only the flesh that is capable of sin, and not the spirit.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

I am NOT speaking from a gnostic position:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

A "living soul" - flesh.

EricH: I have quoted Romans regarding the fact that ALL CREATION was created IN VANITY - weak - frail, and those are the terms I use to identify the "flesh". I have explained this in other posts.

APO: What was it in Adam, if not the weakness of the flesh and self-pride that caused him to disobey God? Use the scriptures Man, tell me what God says about it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

At the point you say that the physical body is weaker than the spiritual one, yes, you are holding to a Gnostic position. "Flesh" in the passage you are using is refering to the ethical nature of man, not our literal flesh. If it is weaker, then Jesus should have sinned.

I'm not answering a single one of your questions until you actually deal with the hebrew interpretation and about 90% of the stuff I posted that you dropped. Don't know why you can't get that through your head. Here, I'll even post it here for you because you are apparently unwilling to look it up:

G2937

κτίσις

ktisis

ktis'-is

From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

G2936

κτίζω

ktizō

ktid'-zo

Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.

My interpretation automatically trumps yours in that I looked at the manuscript and interpreted it on my own study and merit whereas you looked to a concordance (dictionary). This does not allow for context and therefore your attempt no longer matters at this point.

Secondly, and more importantly, you didn't even get the correct word. The word "vanity" that you keep using is mataiotes would be "frustration" or even in more of a context "void of truth." It actually comes from the word mataios which means an absense of truth or an absense of purpose (both mean essentially the same thing). At this point, we look at what Paul said in Romans 8. If we take your heretical application and use the proper words, this means that God created a world void of truth, i.e. already fallen. Now, the world was created through God's voice...everything came about because He spoke it into existence. If something is void of truth is it what...a lie. Thus, if God created the world without a purpose and/or void of truth, then God lied when He spoke, or at the very least He spoke without using truth. This goes against the very nature of God. Therefore, God did this AFTER the fall had occured. To assert otherwise is to say God lied, which is heretical.

What you and AK propose is that a "perfect world" was created by God and that after Adam sinned, God modified His creation to accommodate the new paradigm of sin to which Adam succumbed. My Bible says that on the 7th day God rested from all the works His hands had made. Does that mean anything to you? Of course not, without a major paradigm shift of your own.

I ignore it because it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Now did God NOT KNOW of the sin that Adam would commit? You seem to think so.

God knew Adam would sin, which is why He created Adam as complete and in perfection, this way it was man who caused his own fall and not God creating him that way.

Yet the Lamb's Book of Life was written from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, which you seem to overlook and never respond to.

That's a real point? I thought you were joking, that's why I never responded. Anyway, it's absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. God's foreknowledge of events has NOTHING to do with Adam being perfect or us still being in the image of God. You're trying to grasp at straws here, but they're the wrong straws.

Again, God did not create man in a "fallen state". Why don't you read my posts? He created man "a little lower than the angels", subjected to the "frailties" (vanity) of flesh and of this world. Without eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life, Adam would have died, can't you see that?

*sigh* You know, maybe the Catholic church was correct in keeping the Bible from certain people....I now understand some of the logic in that....

Let's look at this cesspool of misinterpretation. For one, "a little lower than the angels" is not refering to our ontological or even ethical status, therefore it still doesn't apply to this discussion. It is refering to our purpose. What is the purpose of angels? To serve God in every capacity and act as His messengers. What is the purpose of man? To love God and obey Him and have direct contact with Him. Our purpose is different from Angels, and angels have a "higher" purpose. Thus we are "a little lower." It's absurd to apply this in a metaphysical or ethical way because it is saying that the image of God is a little lower than the angels, which elevates angels above God.

Secondly, the conclusion of your theory is that man was made in a fallen state. YOu are asserting that man could still die pre-fall. Scripture does not say this. THe Tree of Life is not literal life, if you've read the Bible you would know this. It reappears in Revelation in the new Jerusalem. Now, if the Tree of Life is the only thing that makes us eternal, then if we don't eat it in the new Jerusalem, what then? The Tree of Life, like most everything in the Bible, was real but symbolic. It resembled trusting in God and relying on Him which is what gives us life. It resembles the same thing in Revelation.

Adam was created imortal and was then subjected to death AFTER he at the fruit.

AK, in fact has written that Adam DIDN'T NEED CHRIST. According to God's PLAN, if Adam were ever to see the New Heavens and the New Earth, he most certainly WOULD NEED CHRIST. Do you think the New Heavens and New Earth were an AFTERTHOUGHT OF GOD? Or was it, as the scriptures clearly indicates, that His plan was was conceived EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. Quit listening to man, and start listening to the Word of God.

Heed your own advice, you're the one preaching heresy here.

Regardless, no, prior to the fall Adam did not need Christ. What is the purpose of salvation? To restore us to what we once were. If Adam was what we once were, how could he be restored to what he already was? The entire purpose of Christ was to redeem what Adam had done. If Adam needed Christ before the fall, then the purpose of salvation would be for Christ to redeem man from what God had done. This would make God a sinner.

As for afterthoughts, no, they were not afterthoughts at all. However, this has nothing to do with creation. God made creation knowing what would occur, which is why He made it perfect. THe purpose of salvation is to restore us to what we once were, not to achieve what man has never been. God created a perfect world, knowing we would fall, but He did so that when we did fall, it would cause a full impact of sin.

You accept the "natural man's" view of "perfection", and NOT what God's PERFECTION is. God said that all His hands had created were VERY GOOD - PERIOD! Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that all His creation is PERFECT. The only ONE perfect that has walked on this earth is Christ. To say that Adam was created perfect, or in fact any of God's creation was PERFECT, is to put it on a par with Christ and God, which it never was, nor can it be. Read 1 Cor 15.

This is such an incompetent response...it doesn't address the Hebrew translation. WHy doesn't it address it? Because you can't respond to it. Fact is, I'm 100% correct on this, and so is every Church Father and leader that has interpreted it as such for 2,000 years. I went ahead and asked Shiloh to help, to see if maybe I might be off...here is his reply to what you said on this:

Tov Meod for very good implies flawless perfection regarding the initial state of creation. It does not put Adam on par with Christ and God to say that he was created perfect. God cannot create less than perfection. Saying that Adam was perfect is not the same as saying that Adam was Divine. Those are two completely different concepts.

Tov Meod is a term denoting force. Meod means "great" or "greatly." But that does not really capture the connotation. If you can imagine the way water forcefully gushes in torents from a fire-hydrant, or the unstopple force of the flow of Niagra Falls, it gives a greater understanding of this term. So "very good" is a forceful term, really. In our vernacular it could be rendered, "good, and then some."

God has only one standard of "good." He cannot operate from anything less. For God to call something good, it would have to meet His absolute standard. It was "good" in abundance. It would by virtue of a perfect Creator, been absolutely perfect in His eyes for Him to call it "good." That is only logical.

As you can see, perfection does not equal divinity, but it does mean that he was perfect in every sense of the word.

This proves a point. You and AK keep saying that YES, we are in God's image, but "marred". Aren't you adding to the scriptures by this? Just WHAT is marred? Adam's character? His moral self? His loving self? Just what? Are you saying that these and other characteristics are in the same category as God's? If so, you are self deceived.

I really wish I coudl debate someone that understood this issue and had a legitimate stance against it. This is absurd.

We're not adding to the scriptures, it's logical analysis taken from the scriptures. The scriptures say constantly that we are in God's image but it also says we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. Logical analysis: man still has the image of God but it is a distorted image. The only reason you're making the obtuse requirement of it being word for word in scripture is because you have nothing else. When someone goes, "show me in scripture where it says that exactly" it means they've lost because they have no other way to counter it.

Image of God means our personalities, what makes us human, our "manishness" (stealing that from Francis Schaeffer). Love, anger, creativity, thought, intelligence, emotion, etc. all compose the image of God. We see these when people paint pictures, write songs, express love to one another, help one another, etc. Yet we see the fallen nature when this image is abused, when people produce pornographic paintings, songs that glorify sin, etc. The purpose of salvation is not just to save us from sins, but restore the image of God found in Christ. Christ lived in the "image of God" and showed us what it looks like.

A counterfeit dollar bill is made in the LIKENESS of a REAL dollar bill, but to an expert, there is a difference.

Even more heresy, you are saying that the image is a fake image of God? So God made us in His image but it's really a counterfeit? Stop relying on concordances because you just got the wrong interpretation. I refuse to respond to anything else where you use a concordance. They are stupid, they barely help, and if you have no training in either language, they are useless.

1) WHEN did God conceive of the Plan of Salvation?

Before He made the world.

2) WHAT is the Plan of Salvation?

To restore us to shalom. Notice we are to be restored, which means we have to go back to something......if that is the case, what are being restored to? You have NEVER answered this. This is because you're intellecutally dishonest and refuse to answer or respond to anything that destroys your position.

3) HOW is the Plan of Salvation delivered?

Through Christ.

4) WHY did God produce this Plan of Salvation?

Because Adam fell into sin.

5) WHEN will the Plan of Salvation be complete? Even for Adam?

At the end of the age, when God brings down the new Earth.

Respond to everything there and then we can go a head and discuss your misapplied scriptures and desperate attempt to bring back Gnosticism.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetngs APO,

Here is why Adam sinned and Jesus (even in the flesh) did not:

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Again, Adam was a "living soul" Jesus was a "quickening spirit". The flesh profiteth nothing, but the spirit gives life.

It has always been God's plan that Jesus provide the way, the truth and the life. Adam was tempted as we are and sinned. Jesus was tempted as we are yet without sin. Jesus overcame the temptations of the Devil by quoting the scriptures to Him in the power of the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Adam?

One of our greatest obstacles in this world is self-pride. I know that when I was finally confronted with all my pride, and saw who I really was - in the flesh - I was absolutely broken. I wept and wept over my sin and that I was undeserving of God's grace and forgiveness. Adam passed the buck and so did Eve. It was the Holy Spirit at work in me whereby I was able to confess and repent and bow down to God. Adam had no such power - for the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. Adam, even as we are "in the flesh", are weak, frail and subject to all sorts of temptations that sheer will-power cannot overcome. Adam needed Jesus just as much as we do.

Sorry, that some just cannot see this. We are born into a world of death, separated from God because of Adam's sin. And until we are born again IN THE SPIRIT, we are not able to overcome the world. This is the crux, this is why Adam fell.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[EricH]

EricH: I have quoted Romans regarding the fact that ALL CREATION was created IN VANITY - weak - frail, and those are the terms I use to identify the "flesh". I have explained this in other posts.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

That is not what Romans 8:20 actually says:

Lets look at Romans 8:19-21

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 8:19-21 NASB

The passage does not say all creation was "made subject" (implication created that way) in vanity. It says it "was subjected to futility". It is in the aorist passive tense. There is no sense of creation in the verb or the tense. It is simply they "became subject" (which implies they were not subject then at a specific point in time became that way (that is the sense of the aorist tense). Where in the sense of the verb or the tense ore you extracting this happened at creation? It seems to me you are reading that into the text.

Creation was subjected to futility at Genesis 3:17-18 where the ground was cursed and creation subjected to frustration.

[EricH]

Greetngs APO,

Here is why Adam sinned and Jesus (even in the flesh) did not:

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Again, Adam was a "living soul" Jesus was a "quickening spirit". The flesh profiteth nothing, but the spirit gives life.

It has always been God's plan that Jesus provide the way, the truth and the life. Adam was tempted as we are and sinned. Jesus was tempted as we are yet without sin. Jesus overcame the temptations of the Devil by quoting the scriptures to Him in the power of the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Adam?

One of our greatest obstacles in this world is self-pride. I know that when I was finally confronted with all my pride, and saw who I really was - in the flesh - I was absolutely broken. I wept and wept over my sin and that I was undeserving of God's grace and forgiveness. Adam passed the buck and so did Eve. It was the Holy Spirit at work in me whereby I was able to confess and repent and bow down to God. Adam had no such power - for the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. Adam, even as we are "in the flesh", are weak, frail and subject to all sorts of temptations that sheer will-power cannot overcome. Adam needed Jesus just as much as we do.

Sorry, that some just cannot see this. We are born into a world of death, separated from God because of Adam's sin. And until we are born again IN THE SPIRIT, we are not able to overcome the world. This is the crux, this is why Adam fell.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Maybe the reason most cannot see it is because it is not in the text. Again, you are basically stating gnostic positions that the apostles battled from the very beginning. Namely that the human body was created inherintly flawed by God. That the Spirit is incapable of sin. This is not a biblical concept. The spirit can sin. For example:

Paul commands the Crointhian belivers not to be defiles in body or spirit (implying that the spirit can be defiled (2 Cor 7:1)

He says that unmarried women should be pure in body and the spirit ( 1 Cor 7:34)

Psalm 78 speaks of people whose spirit was not faithful to God.

Proverbs 16:18 speaks of a haughty spirit

If you believe in a tripart nature of humans the sould can also sin

Our souls need to be purified (1 Peter 1:22) - implying they are not pure

[deadman1204]

just a quick post, so I havnt read all the replies since my last post, but

Adam HAD to of been created sinless. He walked with God. Sin cannot be tolerated in the presence of God. He would have died first time he saw God if he was created evil or a sinner.