The Reformers were just men.

[Mark777]

I did not want to bog down the OSAS thread with this subject but thought it important to pursue. The Reformers were men with their own problems and sin just like the rest of us. Men like Martin Luther did great things and managed to free himself of Roman Catholic paganism - to a large degree. He did great but he was far from perfect and rest assured that imperfection was present in everything he did - he was just a man. I want to show that the Scripture is only on par with itself. Man-made confessions and systems of theology are tainted with the authors sin. I am including a small quote from one of the last things Luther wrote and you will see what I mean.

From: On Jews and Their Lies. By Martin Luther.

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews ... Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us ... so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews ...

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Luther, like Catholicism at the time - was Anti-semitic. He believed them to be Christ-killers. The violence that he wished upon them was a very Catholic thing. Luther did escape much of his Catholic indoctrination but not all......... We shouldn't be of the cult of Luther, or the cult of anyone but Christ Jesus and His word. We can deal with it directly in the same manner that anyone else has. We must learn and pursue the truth and God will guide His elect.

Mark

[st. Worm]

How very sad and disappointing Mark that you have taken this approach to attempt to discredit the Great Reformer that we all owe so much to. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you read essays and writings of the influencial men of this time including Luther you would clearly be aware of the flamboyant and what appears to us excessive language and writing styles. Luther, other than Christ himself, is probably the most written about figure in human history so its easy for you to find ammunition for what you are attempting to do. I am certain if you were someone important I could easily find some good dirt on you to expose. This same tactic was tried on John Calvin a few weeks ago when a poster brought to this site information about Calvin and the Servetus episode that was completely inaccurate. Its a shame that people like you have to resort to this rather than debate the merits of what men like Luther and Calvin taught.

At any rate, just to keep it all in perspective I have included below a followup from the Wisconsin Lutheran site on this.

There is nothing in Luther that calls for the killing of Jews.

It is a fact that late in life (1542), after earlier writings in which he sympathized with the Jews and scolded Europe for its treatment of the Jews, Luther wrote, "About the Jews and Their Lies". In Part IV of that treatise, he did prescribe harsh treatment of the Jews.

His opposition was not racial or ethnic, but religious. He was bitterly disappointed that they had refused to believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

During the three decades of his career, Martin Luther had less negative to say about the Jews than did such contemporaries as Thomas More and Erasmus of Rotterdam.

Lutherans and Christians who admire Luther do not endorse or condone the negative things he did write in 1542.

Mark, you have certainly exposed more about yourself than anything else by starting this thread. Like I said, I am very disappointed in what you are trying to do.

SW

[EricH]

All of us are men prone to sin. I guess that was the point of Jesus' coming

[Mark777]

Oh what grave tone you use. I like your style. "I'm so disappointed in you" "You should be ashamed of yourself"!! Lets just make it simple - ask a Jewish person to read that and see if they think it was just being flamboyant. Maybe I will invite a jewish scholar to come here and comment. ( I know one.) I find it funny that I have disappointed you by pointing out the obvious. Luther was just a man the same as John Calvin or anyone else. And you bet you can find dirt on me - I am just a man. That was my point. The Scripture is on par with itself. The writings of men are filled with hatefulness, agendas, sympathies, lusts, etc... that includes Luther - which I have demonstrated. No amount of excusing him for suggesting the things that he did will justify it. And quoting the institution that is his name sake isn't helping your cause. Like I said earlier, you shouldn't belong to the cult of Luther or any other cult. You should solely adhere to the Scripture as clearly as you understand it.

Now, am I saying Luther was bad? No. He was an amazing force in our religion. When you reply you should be balanced. Your style is to demonize the person you are talking to. I think you would do better to not exaggerate and just reply. I do not know you and you do not know me. Why would you want to attack me. Lets just talk about the subject at hand. Shall we?

I note that you are disappointed with me - lets move on.

Mark

[EricH]

We just finished with this exact thread several weeks ago and it got ugly. We had to close it. Please be civil and Christ-like in your approach

[Smalcald]

Well as a Lutheran I do realize that Luther was a man, obviously. I also realize he was slightly crazy, mostly crazy in a good way though and also brilliant. But he was writing under threat of death. When asked about why his language even for the time was so extreme he pointed out that only this type of language would shake the foundations of the Roman Church, and it did, he had to be strong and strident.

The Lutheran Church roundly rejects Luther's anti-Semitic rants, I certainly do. But as worm pointed out it is certainly too bad that he ended up being remembered that way in that most of his life he was a defender of Jews against the treatment they were getting in Europe. Luther honestly believed that once the pure Gospel was proclaimed to the Jews, without the Pope, without the hierarchy getting in the way, they would obviously repent and turn to Christ. When they did not, well he just could not grasp why and became bitter towards them, to his discredit I think.

But from a spiritual perspective I agree with Luther and his writings as they simply reflect what is in the bible and what is sound doctrine from the bible, but of course they are not inspired or the Word of God.

But we do need to understand what the bible is saying, what the doctrinal concepts are, and God has given us great men who have helped us do that. No one who has read the bible on this board read it without the influences of other ideas and people, be they Luther or Scofield or Augustan or Calvin or Newman or whoever.

A church claiming to be bible believing, but not having doctrine, nor creeds (which are simply statements of faith) has nothing has no meaning. Mormons claim to be bible believing, JW's claim to be bible believing, snake handlers claim to be bible believing, David Koresh claimed to be bible believing, the gay Metropolitan Church claims to be bible believing, without doctrine and creeds it means nothing.

[apothanein kerdos]

My question is, how is admitting that Luther was anti-semetic (and became that way in the later years of his ministry) slanderous against him? It only proves him to be a fallible human. It doesn't nullify his position, it doesn't make less what he has done, it merely says, "Look, the guy made some mistakes to even when it comes to his doctrine and theology, we need to compare it to the Bible...as he would have us to do."

His writings were anti-semetic as well, in that he refered to the children of Abraham, not to those that practice Judaism. He made no distinction. Though it was caused by Jews not accepting CHrist, he took this out on the race, not the religion. It calls for them to be slaves to Christians, to lack safe travel (which means, let them die on the roads), etc. Even if you don't buy that it is anti-semetic, it certainly is anti-Christian.

Again though, admitting such a thing doesn't devalue what Luther did, it merely makes him human. Why is it that the Bible has no problem recording the faults of the most amazing men, but at the point we do the same with a reformer it's "disappointing?" We need to drop this infallible hero concept and realize that our leaders were not always infallible. This was the very paradigm they were fighting against.

[Mark777]

Smalcald,

You are a great man and so is every other believer by the mere fact that we have God indwelling us. And we have great possibilities. People should exercise their

god given ability tosearch the Scriptures for themselves - to take personal responsibility to know what it says and battle with it - to seek truth.

I never said that creeds and histories were not important. I said you do not need them to know the truth. You need Scripture and the Holy Spirit. And because st. Worm accused me of not respecting Luther everone should go back and read the intro to my first post.

One other thing - I said also that this was written later in his life. My reason for posting it was to show that even great men are sinners and are effected by their times and circumstances.

It was my hope to elevate Scripture over men's thoughts about the Scripture. I believe people should have a direct experience.

Thank you,

Mark

[st. Worm]

Butero, I do not run away from Luther with regard to some of the things that indicated his sinfulness and imperfections. I answered Mark the way I did with some of his recent posts in mind that were attempts to say that there is no value in the teachings of men like Luther. His timing for this post was, in my view, an attempt to discredit Luther's teaching by posting a portion of Luther's writings about the Jews. In other words, there was an agenda on his part in posting it and that agenda was to assasinate Luther's character rather than deal with his doctrine. Besides, as I noted in my initial response, Luther's views at this point of his life about Jews were hardly excessive when compared to other men in and out of the church. So an attempt to brand Luther as out of the mainstream in this area will always fail.

No one, especially Lutherans would ever claim the Reformers had perfect knowledge. Who here has said that? No one is blindly following Luther's doctrines. Luther only wrote limited portions of what comprises the Book of Concord anyway.

In addition to attempting to discredit Luther by "exposing" him as a sinner (Luther would be the first to agree that he was the chief of sinners) Mark is also implying the straw man that says Christians who have codified what they believe the Bible teaches are following the "doctrines of man". If this is so, then every time someone says what they believe the Bible teaches, they too are following the "doctrines of man", and that includes Mark777. So based on his view and definition I would submit that everyone on this board is following the "doctrines of man". Whenever, Mark777 interprets God's Word, that is following the doctrines of man.

sw

[Mark777]

st. Worm : " I answered Mark the way I did with some of his recent posts in mind that were attempts to say that there is no value in the teachings of men like Luther. "

Mark: st. Worm, I call you on this statement. Where did I say there was no value in the teachings of Luther or anyone else? You have accused me - now show it. I asked you to play fair and I guess this is my answer. I never said this or insinuated it. Because you cannot answer my original thought you have to invent straw men to knock down.

I ask you clearly to show us where I said this?

Mark