Why a Trinity?

[emeraldgirl]

Christianity, at least in it's orthodox forms, pre-supposes The Trinity. Three are one. One is three. Yet, no one can explain or even really understand the "mystery" of the Trinity. Mystery indeed! I'll say! It's like saying a cat is also a dog and a horse. It's totally a cat, but it's totally a dog and totally a horse. Oh, but only one animal. Say what? Of course we can't understand it!

Sometimes I think the "idea" of the Trinity just came up as a way to have your cake and eat it too. "We have ONE God. We are monotheists. But we also have Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So that's three Gods. Hmmmm. Maybe we'll just say it's a mystery - it's one and it's three."

Even when we see Jesus interact with the Father, it makes no sense at all unless you think of two individuals. Did he forsake himself on the cross? Was he both descended into Hell (as Jesus) and simultanously still being the omnipresent Creator? The Trinity doctrine starts to seem like those questions you ask when you're 6 or 7 and you're wondering how Santa will come down the chimney of your apartment with no fireplace. And your parents just explain it away by saying, "Well, honey, he's just magic, that's all."

I kind of disbelieve the Trinity, just cause it's so illogical. But then I end up in the circular loop of saying, Well, then, what was Jesus? If he's God, that's two Gods. (The Holy Spirit is a seperate issue and not really problematic.) Still God and Jesus = 2 Gods. But I don't believe in two Gods, either. I really do think there's only one. So then what was Jesus? See, it's maddening.

[Ovedya]

Question for you then: If in any place the Bible there are two seemingly contradictory concepts which are bother true, yet which cannot be logically reconciled or explained, is there a need to reconcile or explain these two things? Do do you reject one for the other? Or do you receive both, believing that there are simply things in the universe - such as God for example - that cannot be aprehended with the human intellect?

Okay, that was really three questions...sorry.

[Fiosh]

Yeah, it can make your head spin.

Volumes have been written by the greatest theological minds, yet we still consider the Trinity a mystery of faith.

It was not a concept that was developed by man for convenience. We believe it even though we cannot understand it because it is true.

Matthew 3: 16-17

"After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.

And a voice came from the heavens, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, 13 with whom I am well pleased.' "

Matthew 28: 18-19

" Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

John 14: 16

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always"

************************************************************************

Here's my best shot at an explanation ( which will not come close to clarifying it at all )

The Trinity is three distinct Persons in one God. They do not share a divine nature; each is fully God.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same essence or divine substance. They share one will. Each is eternally submitted one to the other in this perfect will. Each has his own work which is personal to Him, yet in communion with the others.

"Everyone who glorifies the Father does so thru the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him. " (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

None is better than, higher than, more powerful than, more glorious than,etc... the others.

The Trinity is eternal.

Now that I've probably confused you even more, let me throw in one more idea.

The best imagery of "Trinity" I can come up with is this...

Visualize a hologram of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now take your "projection" and blend the three together into one. Then move them apart into separate persons again. They are absolutely 3 separate persons...... yet one.

Mind blowing. Yup.

Try reading St. Augustine's "The Trinity".

Peace,

Fiosh

[secondeve]

Question for you then: If in any place the Bible there are two seemingly contradictory concepts which are both true, yet which cannot be logically reconciled or explained, is there a need to reconcile or explain these two things?

I don't think there are any two contradictory things in the Bible which cannot be logically reconciled by believing that the book itself was written and concieved by humans, not God, and that even if there is a God, it was humans who told us about him, and we have only their word and judgement to go by. While there are indeed mysterious things in the universe of which we know little or nothing, one does not need to place into this category a pair of statements which depend solely upon the existence of the Christian God - one single deity in the riotous panethon of religious history - for their continuing mutual, non-exclusive truth. Any such contradictions can be defined as true, false or subjective by the same logical processes applied by humanity to most everything else in the world - without the need for the trump card of God or faith to explain away any incompatabilities or inconsistensies.

[Ovedya]

Question for you then: If in any place the Bible there are two seemingly contradictory concepts which are both true, yet which cannot be logically reconciled or explained, is there a need to reconcile or explain these two things?

I don't think there are any two contradictory things in the Bible which cannot be logically reconciled by believing that the book itself was written and concieved by humans, not God, and that even if there is a God, it was humans who told us about him, and we have only their word and judgement to go by. While there are indeed mysterious things in the universe of which we know little or nothing, one does not need to place into this category a pair of statements which depend solely upon the existence of the Christian God - one single deity in the riotous panethon of religious history - for their continuing mutual, non-exclusive truth. Any such contradictions can be defined as true, false or subjective by the same logical processes applied by humanity to most everything else in the world - without the need for the trump card of God or faith to explain away any incompatabilities or inconsistensies.

Secondeve,

While I respect your opinion and your right to comment on the issue as you see it, my understanding of this issue and the question was in the context of a young believer in the faith struggling with a specific aspect of Christian doctrine. In consideration of this fact, I am moving this to Doctrinal Questions where we can hash this issue out without getting sidetracked into a debate about the existence of God. In the future I would recommend that you carefully consider which battles are worth your fighting, and which you should simply watch and learn from others.

Thanks.

Posters: This issue requires no debate whatsoever on the existence or non-existance of the Christian God. As a moderator I would like to ask that you ignore seconeve's comment and address the original poster's questions directly.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

Dear emeraldgirl,

To learn more about God, it is best to start with prayerfully asking Him Who He is and to be given knowledge and wisdom.

When I wanted to know the answer to the Trinity, I asked The Lord and I studied, prayerfully His Holy Word. I also studied many books and early church information. There is so much that we do not need to recreate any Theology here. The early Church did believe definately in The Holy Trinity, it was given to them from God Himself. When they wrote out the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, and alot more from the apostolic fathers, the deciples of the Apostles of Christ and their students and the early Church writings you can read and they will give further insight.

The teachings were clearly taught and so, they, in refuting heritics and preserving True Teaching of God, wrote to define The Trinity for all future believers. I would suggest you look some of this up online and read it. Do try looking up Catholic and you will find the teachings to help you.

The Catholics have preserved so much from such an early time period, and we can find alot of understanding from this.

The Bible itself does teach Trinity. Look up about The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son and you will see how they are defined in many ways. In the King James Version, you will even see the word Godhead. That is also helpful.

In Genesis we see; let US create man IN OUR IMAGE. This continues all through the Bible in both Old Testament and the New Testament, too. It is not only NT. Infact, Jesus said the OT was written to be a witness of ME(JEsus) yet you won't come to ME(Jesus) when talking to people about Who HE is.

Spending time devoted to learning more about GOD is an ever deepening and worthwhile way to be with God.

Both the Bible and many Christian Books can help you deepen your understanding on this, showing scriptures in their correct context and elaborating upon them.

One important thing to remember is, the The Creator(GOD) is always more complicated than that which HE(GOD) has created(man). While much can be learned, when we see Him then we shall see HIm AS HE IS, said the Apostles of Christ.

we cannot fully fathom all of GOD. He is above us. However, you can KNOW HIM.

But, there is alot to learn about Him. I would like to encourage you to study on this and become stronger on your understanding. A one liner in here won't begin to help you enough.

We know that Each are distinct, each equal and One Holy God.

Not three gods in one God. Not three thirds of GOd. But The Eternal Three in One IS GOD.

Distinct, yet equal in essence and nature.

Sometimes asking the right questions is just as important as finding the right answers. Infact, if we don't ask the right questions, we won't find the right answers. Meaning that there are other focus and way to look at HOW to find this answer.

WIth all of my studies, I am fully convinced that God is One and GOd has revealed Himself in THe Father, The SOn and THe Holy Spirit.

Please take the time to go look up info and study, you will learn so much that cannot be fully answered in here this way.

It is all preserved for you. I hope you do read up on this and be convinced and strengthened. You will find that The Father is fully God The Son is Fully God and The Holy Spirit is Fully God.

The Father is Spirit.

Jesus is the exact Image, Representation of GOd and has reveald the Father to us. The Holy Spirit is also GOd and can teach, dicern, be grieved and is not some energy, HE is GOD.

I hope you will study further and get to know our Wonderful GOd, who being complex beyond our imagination or abilities, has chosen simple ways to help us just Know Him and find Him and be saved in and come to Him!

Godbless,

elkie

[Christian]

Bless you Oveyda for moving this thread !!!

secondeve is truly tiring and frustrating in her posts.

emeraldgirl,

Blessings to you. The best way that I find to understand the absolutely mind bending concepts in Scripture is to humble myself and admit that there are many things that we will just not, and can not fully understand now. This is not an avoidance of the facts or truth, but more an acknowledgement of the sheer immensity and awesome being that is our Father in heaven. One day it will be shown to us all and we will fully understand it then, in the meantime we adhere to our Scripture and keep the faith.

My basis for belief in the Trinity is this Scripture as I don't think He was talking to "Himself" here.

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.

God Bless

in Christ,

-CC-

[germanJoy]

Christianity, at least in it's orthodox forms, pre-supposes The Trinity. Three are one. One is three. Yet, no one can explain or even really understand the "mystery" of the Trinity. Mystery indeed! I'll say! It's like saying a cat is also a dog and a horse. It's totally a cat, but it's totally a dog and totally a horse. Oh, but only one animal. Say what? Of course we can't understand it!

Sometimes I think the "idea" of the Trinity just came up as a way to have your cake and eat it too. "We have ONE God. We are monotheists. But we also have Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So that's three Gods. Hmmmm. Maybe we'll just say it's a mystery - it's one and it's three."

Even when we see Jesus interact with the Father, it makes no sense at all unless you think of two individuals. Did he forsake himself on the cross? Was he both descended into Hell (as Jesus) and simultanously still being the omnipresent Creator? The Trinity doctrine starts to seem like those questions you ask when you're 6 or 7 and you're wondering how Santa will come down the chimney of your apartment with no fireplace. And your parents just explain it away by saying, "Well, honey, he's just magic, that's all."

I kind of disbelieve the Trinity, just cause it's so illogical. But then I end up in the circular loop of saying, Well, then, what was Jesus? If he's God, that's two Gods. (The Holy Spirit is a seperate issue and not really problematic.) Still God and Jesus = 2 Gods. But I don't believe in two Gods, either. I really do think there's only one. So then what was Jesus? See, it's maddening.

The Scriptures confirmed the "mystery" of godliness, yes "Trinity" is a mystery according to Scriptures. Speaking about Jesus Christ, Paul wrote:

And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness;

He who was revealed in the flesh,

Was vindicated in the Spirit,

Beheld by angels,

Proclaimed among the nations,

Believed on in the world,

Taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Since it is a mystery, it cannot be intellectually and logically understood. It can only be received by and through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. There are only two (2) spirits controlling the souls of human beings, i.e., the Holy Spirit and the antichrist spirit.

If the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to a person, this individual begins to believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is raised from the dead, Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man, Jesus is the Word of God who was with God and was God, etc. (acknowledging distinct identiy of Jesus as Son of God and equality of Jesus and God). All these revelations were received by Apostle Peter, Paul, and all believing christians at that time until today. The only true revelation that leads to truth and eternal life.

If the antichrist spirit reveals a lie to a person, this individual begins to believe and confess that Jesus is not God but only man, Jesus is half-God and half-man, Jesus is not Lord, Jesus is not raised from the dead, Jesus has no Father for He is the Father in heaven because there is only One God, etc. (denying distinct identity of Jesus as Son of God and denying equality of Jesus and God). All these revelations were received by those who presented another gospel to deceive the minds of the believers and pull them out of the true teachings about Jesus Christ. The false teaching that leads to lies and eternal destruction.

There are two sitting on the heavenly throne.

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19

and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. Acts 7:56

There are two names of God (the name of the Son and the Father) on the forehead of the chosen 144,000.

And I looked and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Rev. 14:1

Both the Father AND the Son (not the Father OR the Son) have to be confessed.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23

Jesus is God.

looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus; Titus 2:13

God is the Father of Jesus.

We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:3

Trinity according to Apostle Paul.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Sprit, be with you all. 2 Cor. 13:14

Trinity, a wonderful mystery full of truth that sets the captives free. Would you like to be set free, emeraldgirl? Take heed to the revelation of the Holy Spirit!

Edited June 20, 2006 by germanJoy

[emeraldgirl]

Oy.

If in any place the Bible there are two seemingly contradictory concepts which are bother true, yet which cannot be logically reconciled or explained, is there a need to reconcile or explain these two things? Do do you reject one for the other? Or do you receive both, believing that there are simply things in the universe - such as God for example - that cannot be aprehended with the human intellect?

Well, that could be part of the problem. To me, there is a need to reconcile it. I accept that there are things which can't be understood by myself - or any human mind - but I don't see why salvation should be predicated on any such thing. I can't fathom the size of the universe, but nothing hangs on it. I can't understand what a quark is like, but my afterlife doesn't depend on it. And I still don't get how a fax machine can duplicate exactly what I sent in Maryland to someone in California, but I can use a fax machine without understanding it. I think salvation must be self-discoverable, without any theologians and scholars having to create a hypothesis and then telling us to accept it because it can't be understood.

And a voice came from the heavens, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, 13 with whom I am well pleased.' "

Matthew 28: 18-19

" Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

But he didn't say, "He is the same as me - we are one, we exist together in one essence." It took human scholars postulating the Trinity to explain how there is one God, but there are also many references to three Gods. What would we believe if there was no one telling us what to believe? Maybe I'm intellectually limited, but I'm sure *I* would never have devised the idea of the Trinity.

While I respect your opinion and your right to comment on the issue as you see it, my understanding of this issue and the question was in the context of a young believer in the faith struggling with a specific aspect of Christian doctrine.

Well, I'm not really a "young believer". I think it's the "girl" in my username that throws people, but that is a reference to my child. I am an old believer, raised in a devout Christian family, teethed on hymnals. I'm going through my second near-collapse of faith. I'm a chronic doubter. I am faith-challenged. It kinda bugs me when people say, in essence, "Just read your Bible and pray to God for wisdom and understanding. He says in James he'll give it to you." Well, that has not happened yet. I've only ever found two choices: suspend judgment and say "I believe", even if I doubt many things in fact, or leave the faith entirely. No wonder I go through cognitive dissonance.

(I do appreciate people trying to be helpful, though, even if it's ineffective. At least it's being done in the right spirit.)

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.

That's one reason I don't accept Biblical inerrancy, another "must" apparently, but that's another post, which I've already exhausted. I think the plural usage here demonstrates the Creation account's ties to mythology existing at the time, but let's not go off the main point.

[Ovedya]

Well, that could be part of the problem. To me, there is a need to reconcile it. I accept that there are things which can't be understood by myself - or any human mind - but I don't see why salvation should be predicated on any such thing. I can't fathom the size of the universe, but nothing hangs on it. I can't understand what a quark is like, but my afterlife doesn't depend on it. And I still don't get how a fax machine can duplicate exactly what I sent in Maryland to someone in California, but I can use a fax machine without understanding it. I think salvation must be self-discoverable, without any theologians and scholars having to create a hypothesis and then telling us to accept it because it can't be understood.

Emeraldgirl,

Thank you for your response. I guess I'm just wondering now what makes you think that your salvation is dependent upon a certain theology or Biblical concept? Although I will readily admit that I do not understand myself how God can be one and three at the same time, I have never hinged my salvation upon this fact. I take the approach that the Bible affirms to us that God is one and that He is three at the same time. Since I believe that the Bible is God's inerrant Word, I also believe these two aspects of the truth. I also take the approach that, since this truth is in harmony with the general truth of unity in plurality/ plurality in unity found in the Scriptures, I believe that there isn't a need to be able to reconcile these two aspects of the truth with one another.