Why a Trinity?

[WayneB]

emeraldgirl,

God bless you sister. Sometimes folks get frustrated when hard questions are asked. Remain patient.

I will offer this consideration though... sometimes it comes down to FAITH even if "logic" dictates differently. Not "blind" faith but a deep love for God and an earnest desire to understand His character and true nature as His Word & Holy Spirit give understanding.

Something to think about...

God made man in His image, which means that we are tripartite as well. [Genesis 1:27] God reveals in His Word that we are composed of a body, soul and spirit. Now there is much debate regarding what the human soul really is (I believe it is our intellect & conscience thought) but there is little to no debate regarding man having a spirit and a flesh. Solomon speaks of a silver chord that holds our spirit to our bodies that once severed our flesh returns to dust and our spirit goes to be with the Father. [Ecclesiastes 12:6,7]

Therefore, to begin to understand God's nature we must first understand our very own nature.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

[Mark777]

E. Girl,

One more question, please?

What are your religious beliefs? Do you accept anything about Christ that is biblical? I might address some of the things you commented on later and you can read them when you have time.

I would like to make the general comment that when we are talking about reality and what anything is - we are at a disadvantage - we do not know the true nature of anything, including ourselves. We don't have the faculties to know directly. It is my belief that the only reason we should adhere to God's description is that he is the only one who knows the true nature and source of everything. We see things in a very limited way. Maybe, the reality of existence is far stranger in it's totality than when one sees it from a finite vantage point. The nature of human knowledge is progressive. God interjects knowledge and action even if man cannot utilize it at the time.

Mark

[emeraldgirl]

What are your religious beliefs? Do you accept anything about Christ that is biblical?

Yes. Surprisingly, and perhaps incongruently, I pretty much believe all Biblical doctrine about Christ. I have played with the idea that he was simply an exceedingly excellant man, but it doesn't really wash for me. I accept willingly the Virgin Birth, God Incarnate, Crucifixtion and Resurrection. However, lest I sound too pious or certain, I will say these things are not things I'm passionate about. Like, I don't feel the compulsion to have everyone else believe these things. It doesn't alarm me if someone doesn't believe them, although I don't like to hear Jesus derided.

emeraldgirl,

God bless you sister. Sometimes folks get frustrated when hard questions are asked. Remain patient.

Thank you, I was just saying this to myself while I was off-line. It's a worthwhile reminder.

I will offer this consideration though... sometimes it comes down to FAITH even if "logic" dictates differently. Not "blind" faith but a deep love for God and an earnest desire to understand His character and true nature as His Word & Holy Spirit give understanding.

This is very hard for me, though. I am compulsively logical. And plus, I kind of feel like I gave Him the chance to show me how good he is and he "Job-ed" me. And then the Bible does not help this picture, it makes it worse! And many Christians don't help it, either; they make it worse. They come up with "reasons" for pain that they would be slow to accept if it was their pain.

[Mark777]

E. Girl,

The logic of the world is only logical to people who have been blinded to the existence of God. Once God is considered, logic and its content change. Its called a cognitive system. If you are taught a limited cognitive system - which doesn't include the true source of everything - its logic will be convincing to its adherent but still limited. So, What I am saying is: worldly logic may seem convincing but it is really very limited because it only considers a small part of the whole of reality and God. I advise you to pray and keep reading the Scriptures and study anything that makes itself known to you. God will help expand your logic to include whatever knowledge He has for you.

Mark

[Ovedya]

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=576213

[Mark777]

E. Girl

[emeraldgirl]

Ovedya, What's the matter?

Mark, see, I told you you were a genius! I need my dictionary just to make it through your word choices.

How can you have this belief? What is it based on.

Natural observation. Sometimes we choose "good", which often has a philanthropic nature, and other times we choose "evil", which often has a selfish nature. Just like with light - there are two possibilities - dark or light. Even an atheist can choose good, or evil.

God is the only one who can make an accurate assessment of humanity.

I believe this, which is why I don't presume the kind, philanthropic Jew is not saved.

Also, I would ask you, if original sin doesn

[Smalcald]

Advanced physics does tell us that time is not fixed, dimensionality is not fixed, indeed entities could and probably do exist in the past present and future, entities probably exist at the same time in different dimensions. Also there is a difference between pre-destination, and omnipotent for-knowledge. God is already living in the future, with those who will be saved; He is also here with us.

As far as the flood goes, it is no more problematic than a virgin birth (which you accept), correct? But to the fact that many cultures across time and geography have both a flood account and a Moses account, gives even further credence to the biblical accounts of both, they actually make sense. If there was a worldwide flood, we would see historical cultural evidence and accounts across many cultures of this occurrence, and we do.

Now does world wide really mean earth wide? I don't know, maybe maybe not. It does mean that all those living in the culture of Noah were destroyed. It is very conceivable that massive climatic events indeed impacted cultures world wide, we see today how our earth is changing in negative ways, and it is having global impacts. But for me I don't reject science at all, and I don't get upset trying to force science and the scientific method into the bible. Science is a human created tool which works very well for helping understand the physical world. But it of course answers no question about the "why" the very first "why", it gives no meaning to anything, it simply describes ideas about how things may have happened, meaning is the realm of philosophy, and of course religion.

The doctrine of original sin does not mean we always sin or are always "depraved" in the way some malign the idea. It simply says that all humans at some point will all sin, and this is obvious and we see it. If original sin were not true, some humans would figure things out; we know that sin is harmful to us, thus at some point, some humans would understand that and logically not ever sin; yet it has never happened with one exception.

But in the end of course God does not owe us an explanation for anything. We are tiny little helpless creatures who are all going to get sick and die, we didn

[Mark777]

Emeraldgirl,

Thanks for the answers,

About natural observation - my point was that when someone makes a statement that is all inclusive, that is called a universal statement. In order to make one you have to have universal knowledge. I can make universal statements based on Scripture because they are the supposed words of God - the only being that can have universal knowledge. But the nature of any statement that I make based on the Scriptures changes from personal observation to an abstract concept that I SHOULD try to support with evidence. If evidence cannot be given the statement should be considered a simple assumption.

Also, I would want to ask you to consider that sin can refer to actions but ultimately the word "sin" is the nature of action. A force that determines the mode in which you act. Sin is a condition. For me, that is what original sin is discussing. I think Smalcald discussed this nicely.

And Jesus came because we were not sinless. Having the nature of sin causes us not to be able to obtain the righeousness God demands. We couldn't do it so God did it for us in Christ as a demonstration of love and forgiveness towards us. Salvation is called a gift. Considering this, you can see that sin is more than a description of an act(s) but a condition that flavors our whole being.

E. Girl, you stated, "If this was true, God should be causing the people working on cloning to suddenly have amnesia. Or whatever. Pick any cause in which people are endevoring, essentially, to be god."

Mark777: It is easy to tell God what He should have done but maybe it was something as simple as God was slowing down the progress of men until an appointed time - when He will let men completely reject Him?

Also,

E. Girl: "But you know what is the problem with this. You hang on a board with atheists, you know what my objection is sure to be. Any time there's something we can make sense of scientifically, we just pull out the trump card of supernatural help."

Mark777: I have been on the board of an atheistic cult for six years. I am their pet Christian.

We have talked science off and on all that time. They have no answers. Science is measurement and there is a lot science cannot measure. There are, considering the flood and other topics in the Bible, things we can look at scientifically. For instance, as smalcald mentioned, anthropology has studied the flood stories that many cultures have produced. The stories have age and cultural indicators. They can be mapped as they radiated out from a source, in most cases. Keep studying it - it is interesting. It is my belief, from experience, that the only true debate is between Creationism and Evolution when it comes to origins. And both might be equally unable to be 'exactly" measured by scientific evidence. Time does things to evidence. It ravages it. We do not know what has happened exactly in the past.

We are dealing with a supernatural religion - we believe in one God who created everything. There will be some supernaturalness if the Bible is true. I think where you should direct your studies is to try to determine if the Bible is accurate in other aspects and then see if, in its supernaturalism, it contradicts what is known for sure about anything. Others have done so and have come out believers. And if you are a scientific person, you are in good company. Many of the brightest scientists of past and present are believers.

Thanks for the good comments, EG.

Mark

[WayneB]

I will offer this consideration though... sometimes it comes down to FAITH even if "logic" dictates differently. Not "blind" faith but a deep love for God and an earnest desire to understand His character and true nature as His Word & Holy Spirit give understanding.

This is very hard for me, though. I am compulsively logical. And plus, I kind of feel like I gave Him the chance to show me how good he is and he "Job-ed" me. And then the Bible does not help this picture, it makes it worse! And many Christians don't help it, either; they make it worse. They come up with "reasons" for pain that they would be slow to accept if it was their pain.

Me too. I am an engineer/mathematician by education and experience. Now I manage a mid-size manufacturing plant and have for the past 16 years. You don't get much more compulsive than that. What helped me was when I began looking at the "bigger picture" so to speak, using my spiritual vision rather than my limited physical sight. I firmly believe that there is so much more to us than just this lump of flesh and the Word of God confirms it. Speaking as a believer, our current experience in the physical is preparing us for our eternal life in the spiritual with the Father. We are all a work in process so to speak and God is perfecting us in His image. [2 cor 3:16-18]

You mention Job. Do you realize that Job's experience had little to do with tests and everything to do with righteousness? Job, who was upright and blameless, met his source of righteousness through his experience as reflected in Job chapter 19. Job met his Redeemer and discovered that his Redeemer lives!

I too have been "Job-ed" sister as many of us have. We all have our stories; mine includes my wife losing a child she was carrying some years ago, a 25 year-old son recently diagnosed with an incurable brain disease, a near fatal car accident last year and on and on. Yet in EACH event I can see the hand of God preparing me and those I love for an eternity with HIM. All I have to do is open my spiritual eyes and as the psalmist wrote, enter into His sanctuary (presence). Then I have clearer vision and realize that "my flesh and heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. " There is no other that provides the refuge only HE offers.

I have been accused by many that I am in denial over my son's disease. My wife has had to defend me and explain that we are simply FAITHFUL. What folks miss is that God has done a miraculous work in my son's and our lives (long strory). The disease is still incurable and my son, even after two brain surgeries, is still susceptable to ischemic strokes BUT I can say without a doubt, that he has reflected a courage I never thought possible. It is these things that define us and either strengthen our FAITH and reliance of God as our refuge or distance us. It is all in how we look at it I think.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne