Why a Trinity?

[Smalcald]

But everything you know about the "Jesus Doctrine" (what do you mean by that?) is a lie then. There is nothing known about Christ, NO evidence of His even existing; outside of the Holy Scripture. Now men who were liars about what they saw at Calvary fabricated either the Gospel and the Epistle

[Mark777]

Hello EG,

First things first: If you go anywhere in the world and try to steal someone's property, you are running the risk of getting hurt. Very few people would welcome you to stealing their stuff. Do you know anyone that wouldn't protect their spouse and children if you went and tried to kill them? There is a law in everyone's heart - worldwide - that tells them what is right and wrong - and that law is universal - excepting the lunatic and village idiot. God has put His law in everyone's heart and they are responsible for their reaction to it. God has shown His infinite power to all through the creation. Everyone figures at one time or another that there is something wrong with them and society. The creation points to a creator that is powerful enough to answer man. His solution is the gospel. I know that others will not agree but I believe that God holds an individual to that which He has furnished them. So, I believe that God has shown His truth - in part - to all of mankind. The universal law in man's heart convicts people of sin. We all know there is something wrong. Humanity has created many false attempts at a solution through religion. The true solution is the one He has given through Christ. Why He chooses the timing of the Gospel to appear where He does is something He has not chosen to share. But, as Smalcald has pointed out, you can trust that the same God who made the molecule will keep everything just right!

About three Prophecies and evidence they were fulfilled - Give me a little time and I will furnish you with the details of three examples.

Mark

[emeraldgirl]

But everything you know about the "Jesus Doctrine" (what do you mean by that?) is a lie then.

So what if it is? Then I only believe one lie and not the rest of the lies in the Bible? If it's just one collosal fairy tale from start to finish, so what? I'm not harmed by believing it and neither are you.

OTOH, if the Jesus element is true, why does that sanction anything else men decided to "cannonize" by vote? Haven't you ever read a non-fiction book and some parts said, "Yes, my experience tells me that is totally true.", but in another part said, "No, the author is off on this." Believing that Jesus is/was God doesn't mean I must also believe that a ticked-off "God" drowned the world, but only after he asked a man older than America to build a huge boat to save the animals.

Sorry if my distilled phrase "Jesus Doctrine" bothers you. Objectively, it is just a doctrine, like many others, in many other religions.

Did Jesus just come to save just some of us, and deny His love to others?

No, if he died for any, he died for all. That is my whole point. Not just the lucky people who happen to have a Bible, a concordance, a Christian pastor, several books by Lucado or Strobel, and a family history of devout Christianity.

There is a law in everyone's heart - worldwide - that tells them what is right and wrong - and that law is universal - excepting the lunatic and village idiot. God has put His law in everyone's heart and they are responsible for their reaction to it. God has shown His infinite power to all through the creation. Everyone figures at one time or another that there is something wrong with them and society. The creation points to a creator that is powerful enough to answer man.

Yes, I agree. Why do we need man's tools to try and show the "One True Way" to really find this God we can know and believe is there just by observation?

[Mark777]

EG,

That law that is inside every one of us will lead you to the truth in the Bible. Just be open to everything and be patient. If you really believe in Christ - ask Him to show you. Without Him nothing means much for very long. I will be praying for you in your efforts. I haven't forgotten the three prophecies thing!

Mark

[Smalcald]

Emerald,

You can play around at the faith if you want, but it in the end it will not satisfy you. It is not a parlor game to make us feel better or to give us psychic comfort. If God is God, it will be up to God to define who and how He saves, not you, you don't get the right to make up a God that makes you feel good about yourself, that is the ultimate of pride to sit in God's seat telling God what to do and how to do it.

The bible is either from God or from men. If it is from men, then great read it and also read Buddha and the Koran, and read of course any other self-improvement book that turns you on. But what it is not, is revealed truth, it is just some men writing interesting things that will make you feel good, they can never save your soul.

Now you don't have to read everything in the same way. We can disagree on the levels of literal interpretation, particularly when it comes to some of the writings in the OT, but what you must do to be a believer or have any part in Christ is accept the fact that what is written there is for you and from God, not from men.

If you can't do that, you have no reason to believe in Christ at all. But maybe your Jesus Doctrine is also something you have just made up?

Sorry if my distilled phrase "Jesus Doctrine" bothers you. Objectively, it is just a doctrine, like many others, in many other religions.

Well that is nice, what do you say to people in Africa right now, who are being killed for believing in that "Jesus Doctrine" 'ooops, you should have just picked another doctrine dude, it is all the same'? Would you be willing to die for this doctrine? Because that is what we are called to do. There are people who have given their lives for the simple right to pray to Christ, and have refused to bow to other God's, only Christ. What do you say to them? Playing at this denigrates their death and sacrifice, playing at this denigrates the death that Christ died for you individually.

[emeraldgirl]

If God is God, it will be up to God to define who and how He saves, not you, you don't get the right to make up a God that makes you feel good about yourself, that is the ultimate of pride to sit in God's seat telling God what to do and how to do it.

Of course God is really the only one who knows who and how he saves for certain. Maybe he saves nobody. Maybe he saves everyone. Maybe he only saves the Amish, or Swedish Monks. But I do have the "right" to believe in whatever kind of God I want to, and so do you, which is the right you exercise by believing in the orthodox variety of the Christian faith. You have no more proof that your version of God is correct than my own, only I'm not assuming that anyone who believes differently from me has a crispy future coming.

If you can't do that, you have no reason to believe in Christ at all. But maybe your Jesus Doctrine is also something you have just made up?

Why would it not also be something you have just made up? See, none of us really know, objectively.

People die for lots of "causes"............not everyone is going to believe as you believe.

Not all who "die in the name of Christ" are dying in the "name " of Christ.

I was going to say something just like this. Many have died for religions other than Christianity; it doesn't mean what they died for was correct. I am more than thankful that I live in a country which (for the most part) allows you to worship anything you want (just not in public school ) I'm thankful I can choose to go to a temple, a mosque, a church, or a drum ceremony - or no religious service at all - whenever and if ever I choose. If people die for Jesus, I assume they are very worthy in God's eyes.

Countless people have also been killed because they were not Christians. Does this make Christianity correct?

I'm sorry Smlcald, that I've aggitated you. You are welcome to believe whatever you want to. If I am gravely wrong, than that is a judgment I will have to face for myself. But it's hard for me to imagine that God will reject me because I believe he will be more merciful than He actually is.

[Ovedya]

...it's hard for me to imagine that God will reject me because I believe he will be more merciful than He actually is.

Hmmm...So then, if you believe that God will save everyone, and the truth is actually that God does not, wouldn't that make you less likely to tell someone how God can save them? Seems to me that if God places the responsibility for preaching the truth to unbelievers upon the shoulders of those that already have the truth, then the destiny of those who are intentionally ignored is upon the heads of those whom god has commissioned.

If you believe that everyone is going to be saved because "God is so abundantly merciful" and you turn out to be wrong - that God has mercy upon whom He wills - then your silence should be held against you. It's like if you pass by a smoking building and refuse to call out to the people in that building that there's a fire, figuring that, since the front door is still wide open, surely there's a means of escape.

[emeraldgirl]

God does not, wouldn't that make you less likely to tell someone how God can save them?

To do this would be to presume that I definately know. I don't presume that.

Seems to me that if God places the responsibility for preaching the truth to unbelievers upon the shoulders of those that already have the truth,

How do I know that I have the truth? I don't. I'm willing to tell someone what I think. I can't prove it. Quoting the Bible would not prove it any more than quoting Shakespeare, unless the person I'm talking to already believes the Bible is inerrant, in which case, there's no need to "educate" them.

If you believe that everyone is going to be saved because "God is so abundantly merciful" and you turn out to be wrong - that God has mercy upon whom He wills - then your silence should be held against you.

I'm sure I never said "everyone will be saved", but nevertheless, if I am wrong and God is ticked off about it, then I face whatever I face. Maybe you're wrong and Allah is going to condemn you.

[germanJoy]

How do I know that I have the truth? I don't. I'm willing to tell someone what I think. I can't prove it. Quoting the Bible would not prove it any more than quoting Shakespeare, unless the person I'm talking to already believes the Bible is inerrant, in which case, there's no need to "educate" them.

In the same way, talking to a person who believes that the Bible is erring leaves also no room for "education".

Truth cannot be changed and faith cannot be proven. God is the initiator and the finisher of both. As the potter of a clay, God hardens whom He wants and forms whom He chooses. Not all believe and not all reject the truth and faith in Christ. It is God's eternal plan and it is man's choice to believe or not. No one can prove the truth unless God Himself wills it. Many times, Jesus was challenged to prove that He is the Son of God. He proved it to the believing but not to the disbelieving. He performed miracles to those who believe but left the unbelievers with none. On top of it, He declared those who do not see (who do not require for proofs) but believe as more blessed. Therefore, only those who believe will be able to fully grasp THE TRUTH, I say THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH who is no other than Jesus Christ.

I'm sure I never said "everyone will be saved", but nevertheless, if I am wrong and God is ticked off about it, then I face whatever I face. Maybe you're wrong and Allah is going to condemn you.

Allah had Mohammed as his founder. Mohammed was a mere man who like all other religious leaders and founders are judged by the words of Christ and are bound to perish. Mohammed's words were not eternal and his deeds were evil. Anyone in Christ can be confident that the Allah he preached and believed in was not the true and living God. Neither Mohammed nor Buddha nor Joseph Smith, etc. or any of their followers lived a sinless life, thenceforth was risen from the dead and appeared to hundreds of their disciples afterwards. But the Jesus Christ we preached has done just that. For He is GOD in the flesh, the maker of all things, the only revealed truth of who and what really God is. He was the fulfillment of all the prophesies from Moses, Isaiah and all true prophets of God regarding the Messiah. Emeralgirl, if you want proof you need to first believe then see but it never works the other way around. You can start by believing the events in the Cross of Calvary.

Edited July 3, 2006 by germanJoy

[Guest IAM4YHWH]

I believe that talking to a person who believes that the Bible is without error leaves also no room for "education".

Which so called "Holy Bible" translation would you be referring to anyway?