Why Atonement anyway?

[SoulGrind]

From your posts it is quite obvious to me that you have:

a.) Read the Bible and have chosen to believe only those parts that are of interest to you.

b.) Read only parts of the Bible and have decided that this is enough to justify your beliefs.

Either way - you have missed the point of faith in Christ and I am afraid that any further dialogue with you shall only fall on deaf ears for you believe what you want to believe based on your own formulated opinions, not based on what is written in scripture (you yourself admitted to this fact).

Therefore, I shall shake the dust from my feet and move on.

I pray that one day (before it's too late), that you will understand the true meaning of Christ's death and why it is so important for all mankind.

Peace be to you and your family.

[SoulGrind]

Soulgrind--

You don't address the question of how a perfect deity creates an imperfect world. How can that logically happen? If you say that he did create a perfect world and that Adam and Eve wrecked it when they CHOSE to sin, I will say that God CHOSE to create them knowing that they would sin. Who then has the ultimate responsibility for putting sin on the earth?

You need to read the Bible then. Start off in Genesis.

When God created the world - it was perfect - sin was not in the world. Adam and Eve were flawless and without sin and they interacted with God directly, face to face.

If you read the Bible, you will find that only those who are perfect and without sin can look upon the face of God - Not even Abraham could do this and he was one of the few who had the chance to take "glimpse" at God without dying.

Now, before the world was created - there was a great uproar in Heaven - Lucifer (aka Satan), the Angel of Light - decided he wanted to place himself above the throne of God - Lucifer wanted all the power to himself. God would not stand for this, so God cast out Lucifer and all angels (demons) who stood with him out of Heaven.

Now here's where it gets tricky - and I cannot begin the even understand why this happened but God gave Satan dominion over the Earth.

It wasn't until Satan deceived Eve that sin entered into the world.

Adam, up to this point was still perfect in the sight of God. But when Adam freely chose to follow Eve's advise, he too was now no longer perfect, but was now with sin. This is known as the "Fall of Man".

Now, as we know, the wages of sin was death - but God provided provisions for man, even then - sacrifical lambs, cows, goats, etc. The shedding of their blood became an atoinment for the sins of man.

But as man evolved and became more greedy, more corrupt, more sinful in nature - God put a stop to this. He flooded the earth and wiped mankind out - with the exception of Noah and his family.

The world started anew. However, sin was still in the world. So God decided to send His only Son (Christ) to be the final, last word in atoinment for our sins.

No longer do we go to the temple on a daily or weekly basis to make atoinment for our sins. We do not slaughter goats and rams to cleans outselves of sin.

This was washed away under the new covenant through Christ's death on the cross.

But because Christ was perfect in everyway - his sacrifice was not in vain - Hell, which was made for Satan and his demons is where all who have sinned go to in the next life. However, Christ, who was without sin escaped the 2nd death in Hell because Hell cannot hold those who are without Sin. This is why Christ could rise again. This is why it is the PERFECT attoinment for our sins.

And we can benefit from this - God gives us a very simple criteria - join him or leave him. Those who join with him will be protected from the second death (Hell). Everyone else, who chose not to follow God, will not be covered by the atoinment.

God loves us so much that he put his Son to the cross to atone for our sins, but yet again - he still says - just because I paid your price, you can still decide to follow me or not.

The world has been around for millions of years - man has been around for thousands of years - maybe longer. During this entire time, God has been very patient, giving everyone a chance to accept his offer.

It is only at the end when Christ returns when God says "I've had enough - everyone has had their chance - it is done" and the gates to Hell will be sealed forever - containing all those who decided against Christ.

You need to decide for yourself.

Peace to you,

[sylvan3]

From your posts it is quite obvious to me that you have:

a.) Read the Bible and have chosen to believe only those parts that are of interest to you.

b.) Read only parts of the Bible and have decided that this is enough to justify your beliefs.

Either way - you have missed the point of faith in Christ and I am afraid that any further dialogue with you shall only fall on deaf ears for you believe what you want to believe based on your own formulated opinions, not based on what is written in scripture (you yourself admitted to this fact).

Therefore, I shall shake the dust from my feet and move on.

I pray that one day (before it's too late), that you will understand the true meaning of Christ's death and why it is so important for all mankind.

Peace be to you and your family.

The Bible is touted as the perfect word of God. A person would only have to read about two pages and see things written about a talking snake and a "perfect" deity who has to "repenteth" because this perfect deity is upset with his imperfect creations. If you read a little further, we hear about Noah who lives to about 950 years old, actually outliving Adam (who must not have taken care of himself) who lives to be 900 years old (there are actually people today who try to defend this as a reasonable age for people to live in that time period). Does that sound like something written by humans with a fertile imagination or is it the word of God?

[Jorge S]

Sylvan3 and Secondeve,

I still owe myself a thorough examination of the doctrine of free will arising from the Bible; therefore, my answer to your propositions may be incomplete at this point in time.

What I can say now is that there are three possible -logical- conclusions to be drawn from your reasoning: (1) the anthropomorphization of God (like the rock song says 'what if God was one of us?') (2) the deification of man (we're gods ourselves) or (3) a major God's deception (i.e. God does not make sense and He's just playing chess against Himself with the universe and mankind as chessboard and pieces.)

All of them are opposed to reason, the history of mankind and biblical teaching.

One thing is certain: God is the only Eternal, Uncreated, Perfect Being there is. He made a finite world and its creatures out of nothing and not out of His Own Nature. We cannot become Him. I'm not in a position to question why He made us if He knew what would happen to us. He is Sovereign and can do whatever He pleases according to His Own Standards. I only know that we are here, the world is what it is and He has said every pertinent thing about why the situation is like it is and how He is going to solve it.

God said He made us 'in His Image and after His likeness.' Out of respect for Himself He gave us free will. There cannot be free will without choices upon which it can be exercised. He did not impose a specific choice; He laid out the choices and the consequences thereof. Man could obey or rebel. Adam chose to rebel and his relationship with God became impaired. Genesis tells us, though, that Adam was not the first rebel, Satan was. Our current state is the historic progressive consequence of the sin conflict. God has nevertheless availed in Jesus Christ the means to escape from the vicious circle of sin. We can still make a choice and we are in a better position than Adam was because we have witnessed the results of disobeying God's Word.

The hypothetical scenario you and me wish we had in the past will be a reality in future, e.g. a perfect and holy dispensation where sin is not longer possible, God walks again amidst His people and we can see Him face to face. All who walk and die in the Lord are given their citizenship rights into the next world. That's the God's given promise by which History makes sense.

Blessings.

[sylvan3]

Sylvan3 and Secondeve,

I still owe myself a thorough examination of the doctrine of free will arising from the Bible; therefore, my answer to your propositions may be incomplete at this point in time.

What I can say now is that there are three possible -logical- conclusions to be drawn from your reasoning: (1) the anthropomorphization of God (like the rock song says 'what if God was one of us?') (2) the deification of man (we're gods ourselves) or (3) a major God's deception (i.e. God does not make sense and He's just playing chess against Himself with the universe and mankind as chessboard and pieces.)

All of them are opposed to reason, the history of mankind and biblical teaching.

One thing is certain: God is the only Eternal, Uncreated, Perfect Being there is. He made a finite world and its creatures out of nothing and not out of His Own Nature. We cannot become Him. I'm not in a position to question why He made us if He knew what would happen to us. He is Sovereign and can do whatever He pleases according to His Own Standards. I only know that we are here, the world is what it is and He has said every pertinent thing about why the situation is like it is and how He is going to solve it.

God said He made us 'in His Image and after His likeness.' Out of respect for Himself He gave us free will. There cannot be free will without choices upon which it can be exercised. He did not impose a specific choice; He laid out the choices and the consequences thereof. Man could obey or rebel. Adam chose to rebel and his relationship with God became impaired. Genesis tells us, though, that Adam was not the first rebel, Satan was. Our current state is the historic progressive consequence of the sin conflict. God has nevertheless availed in Jesus Christ the means to escape from the vicious circle of sin. We can still make a choice and we are in a better position than Adam was because we have witnessed the results of disobeying God's Word.

The hypothetical scenario you and me wish we had in the past will be a reality in future, e.g. a perfect and holy dispensation where sin is not longer possible, God walks again amidst His people and we can see Him face to face. All who walk and die in the Lord are given their citizenship rights into the next world. That's the God's given promise by which History makes sense.

Blessings.

Once again, excellent writing. I am impressed with your style. What is your background in this area?

Some brief comments:

First, the anthropomorphization of God is blatant in the Bible (e.g. he gets "angry"). In fact, it is so blatant that I can conclude that it is written by humans who had no regard for what people might think many years later.

Secondly, God does not make sense to me as portrayed in the Bible. For that egregious limitation on my part I could, theroetically, spend eternity in hell, but Hitler, if he accepted Christ before death, would be having a great ol' time in heaven. Yet, considering that, I am told God is "just".

Thirdly, not knowing (not that I would expect you to know) why a supposedly perfect deity would create us knowing what would happen to us is a MAJOR problem for establishing logic regarding God. Logic is paramount to being able to believe in something in my opinion.

Fourthly, it is very difficult to claim unreasonability when one questions the Bible as I have. This is the book that has a perfect deity "repenting", 900-year-old men, talking snakes and donkeys and so on.

Edited July 11, 2006 by sylvan3

[SoulGrind]

Fourthly, it is very difficult to claim unreasonability when one questions the Bible as I have. This is the book that has a perfect deity "repenting", 900-year-old men, talking snakes and donkeys and so on.

All you have to do is take a quick look around at this "man made" world for the answer to this.

God once said "Through me, all things are possible".

Ok - now step back... man has made many achievements on his own...

We said the sound barrier would never be broken. It was.

We said we'd never put a man in space. We have.

These are just two "impossibilities" according to man at one time or another. And yet, today, through computers, science, technology - we would absolutly astound, and maybe even frighten our predeccesors. And these are all the works of man.

Now let's look at "God", in all his righteousness, supposedly capable of performing "mircales" and "wonders" - is it really outside the realm of obtainability and reason?

What if man truly did believe in God the way it was intended? - think about that - how much more would we be capable of?

Talking snakes and donkeys - good parlor trick on God's behalf - one only has to read through the Book of Revelation to get a glimpse of the real show to come.

But keep in mind. We, as our forefathers before us, will view things to come as seemingly "impossible" until they happen.

Edited July 11, 2006 by SoulGrind

[secondeve]

The analogy you have provided doesn't quite work. For a landlord to forgive a monetary debt is an act that is external to his/her core character. In other words, if the landlord forgives your dept, He will be out money, but the essence of who He is will not change.

In terms of sin, God's holiness is a core issue. That is because God's holiness is an essential aspect of His character. He cannot simply turn it off and on. He is holy and just. Let's say God simply gave a pass to everyone. That would violate His justice at the expence of His generosity. What ever solution God came up with had to satisfy every aspect of His eternal character (love, grace, holiness, justice, etc etc)

If God is just - and justice requires punnishment - then God is not all-loving. The two contradict one another. Justice might be that sinners get sent to Hell; love, however, is blind, and would set them free. God can be all-just or all-loving; he can be loving and all-just, or just and all-loving, but he cannot be both all-loving and all-just.

[Guest LadyC]

If God is just - and justice requires punnishment - then God is not all-loving. The two contradict one another. Justice might be that sinners get sent to Hell; love, however, is blind, and would set them free. God can be all-just or all-loving; he can be loving and all-just, or just and all-loving, but he cannot be both all-loving and all-just.

secondeve, do you have any children? consider the perspective of a parent.

if your child decides to beat up on another child, or to steal a candybar from the convenience store, would you forgive without punishing him/her for bad behavior?

what if your child were a teenager... and went out joyriding in your car, had a few beers, and wrecked the vehicle? would you say "oh, that's alright kiddo, because i love you, i'm not going to punish you!"

you seem to have the idea that justice/punishment equates to hatred, or at the very least a strong dislike. as every responsible parent knows, however, punishment is a necessary aspect of true, unconditional love. just because you punish a child doesn't mean you no longer love him/her, nor does it mean that you won't forgive. to the contrary, we have a responsibility to discipline our children, to punish them, to allow them to deal with the consequences of their actions. if we fail in this responsibility, we're not teaching them to make wise decisions. if we don't discipline our kids, their behavior will escalate into poor choices that will likely cause them to die an early death, or rot in prison, or something along those lines. that's not what a loving parent does. a loving parent punishes a child while they are still trainable.

God's love is like that, in it's most pure form. the very fact that God sent His own Son to earth to suffer the most horrible form of torture that resulted in death, for your sins and mine, is the most profound expression of love there is! "that one would lay down his life for another, there is no greater love".

eternal life is a gift that we are free to accept or reject. it is out of love that the gift is offered to each and every one of us, in order to spare us from hell. so a person who dies without accepting the gift is not being punished or hated by God, he/she is suffering the consequences that result from turning down the gift that would spare you.

kinda like if you were on trial for some horrible crime... let's say you robbed a store and shot the clerk. you willingly chose to commit the crime knowing full well that you could spend the rest of your life in a 6x10 cell, or worse. and to take the analogy a bit further, let's say you were offered a plea bargain that would spare you the death penalty... you have a choice to either accept the deal or accept lethal injection. if you don't accept the deal, you have no right to get upset that you have to die, because the choice was made by none other than you. someone offered you a chance to live, and you chose to die.

see what i'm saying?

[emeraldgirl]

Lady C, I'm not secondeve (and secondeve has told me before that she has no children), but I am a parent.

secondeve, do you have any children? consider the perspective of a parent.

if your child decides to beat up on another child, or to steal a candybar from the convenience store, would you forgive without punishing him/her for bad behavior?

See, this is one thing that I find difficult in Christianity. Christians often believe they must punish their children to discipline them and so they also believe God must punish us, too.

I raise my children (who are now 9, 6 and 1.5 years old) with little if any punishment. Oh, I know, someone will immediately think that equates to "permissive". I am not permissive, either. But how can that be? I don't punish, yet I say I'm not permissive? How can that be?

Well, let me ask you: how do you cope with it when your spouse does something wrong? Or your best friend? Or your employee? I'm assuming you don't beat them or make them spend the evening in their room alone. Probably you would say it "depends on the situation", but I'm assuming you work from the relationship to solve the problem. This is what I do with my kids.

Disciplining and punishment are not the same thing. Discipline means to teach. In your example, if my child stole the candy bar from a store, I would take them back to the store to rectify it. If they still had the candy, they would return it. If they didn't have it, they would have to pay restitution to me or the store manager. There is no need to add anything to this experience. The mortification is probably enough.

Beating up another child - can't give a pat answer, because I would have to know the background and what transpired. But to simplify it down to something within my experience, if I've heard my child say something unkind to another child (and there wasn't a provocative reason for it), I would talk to them about what they said. I would ask them how they would feel if someone said this to them. I remind them how to speak kindly to others. And that is it.

you seem to have the idea that justice/punishment equates to hatred, or at the very least a strong dislike. as every responsible parent knows, however, punishment is a necessary aspect of true, unconditional love. just because you punish a child doesn't mean you no longer love him/her, nor does it mean that you won't forgive. to the contrary, we have a responsibility to discipline our children, to punish them, to allow them to deal with the consequences of their actions. if we fail in this responsibility, we're not teaching them to make wise decisions. if we don't discipline our kids, their behavior will escalate into poor choices that will likely cause them to die an early death, or rot in prison, or something along those lines. that's not what a loving parent does. a loving parent punishes a child while they are still trainable.

See, you interchange "discipline" and "punishment", but they are not interchangeable. You can discipline without punishment.

A loving parent disciplines the child while they are still trainable. They teach them how to behave, by word and by example. By daily teaching them when they go off track. Not by whipping their butts when they choose wrong.

I love being a mother and training my child in this gentle way! Our home is peaceful. I get complimented by friends, families and total strangers on how well-behaved and decent my kids are. I love being with my kids; they are a total delight.

[secondeve]

if your child decides to beat up on another child, or to steal a candybar from the convenience store, would you forgive without punishing him/her for bad behavior?

what if your child were a teenager... and went out joyriding in your car, had a few beers, and wrecked the vehicle? would you say "oh, that's alright kiddo, because i love you, i'm not going to punish you!"

I'm 20, so no - I don't have kids (yet). If I had a kid that did those things, though - yes, there'd be punnishment as well as love. But the point of the punnishment is so that they learn not to do it again; so that next time, they do things differently, and become a better person. But Hell isn't like that. Hell is an ultimate consequence. Hell is eternal. Sending us there for our misdeeds in life would be like me yelling at my child every day of his or her life for something they did when they were six. If the punnishment doesn't end, then what is the point? Where's the learning? Where does my love come in, to let the kid learn again and to balance out the necessary reprimand? If God punnished us only in life, that might be a different thing: but Hell tortures for eternity, punnishment untempered by love. It's like the never-ending reprimand from which no further lesson can be learned, except that we did wrong and nothing will ever be right again, nor will we ever make up for our blindness or our errors. Hell is forever. It's like saying that a child has run out of chances: from now on, I'll never give you a chance again or forgive you. And that, to me, is almost the antithesis of love, unconditional or otherwise.