Why Atonement anyway?

[EricH]

There is a clear difference between our responses to events and those of God's. God may experience anger, joy, sadness etc, as do we. The difference is that God is not manipulated by circumstances. He choses to repond the way he does based on His attributes. We on the other hand respond literally in a reactive mode many times. God is totally above creation in the sense that He does not need it, and cannot be manipulated by it.

[SoulGrind]

He is patient? Does this mean that he experiences the very human trait of frustration?

ummm, we were made in HIS image, not the other way around.

let me ask you, how fair would it be to those who HAVE accepted salvation, those who have dedicated their lives to serving God, those who have sacrificed their own selfishness and those who have been persecuted for their faith in God, to get up to heaven and find that they never had to spend one second loving Him, because He was going to let those who hated Him, who rejected Him, and who persecuted the faithful into heaven anyway? if everyone could get in regardless, then what would be the purpose of loving Him? why bother?

Careful here... I see what you're saying, but...

Please don't forget about Paul of Tarsus while on the road to Damascus...

Paul was a persecuter of Christians and the Christian faith until he met Christ.

Of course, at this point, he did a 180 degree turn from his old ways and followed Christ.

After this, Paul beared good fruit - good works, in the name of Christ.

Also, remember the thief on the cross...

All he asked for was that Christ remember him. No good works. But forgiven nonetheless.

Heaven will be filled with several who are last minute believers. Some of them might have been dispicable here on earth - but by the grace of God, they are forgiven, saved, and made holy and righteous in the sight of the Lord.

Everyone has an opportunity for Heaven. Unfortunately, not all make that choice.

Edited July 12, 2006 by SoulGrind

[Guest LadyC]

soulgrind, MOST of us were persecuters of christianity in one sense or the other before accepting Christ. there's nothing to be careful of here. yes, the thief on the cross waited to the last minute, but the point is, he did repent. that's a whole different story from, say, ok here's an example.

assuming that hitler did not repent before he died (and we really don't know), would it be fair to the believers for God to extend salvation to him even though he had rejected God and we hadn't? no, it wouldn't be. if hitler did repent before death and accept God's gift, then i'll greet him in heaven with open arms. why? because if that were the case, then he would have gotten their on the same merit that i had... he'd accepted the gift of eternal life and given his life to the Lord.

it's irrelevant how much of our lives we live in service to God, what IS relevant is whether we ever made that decision.

i've been given and accepted the key to heaven. when i get there, i'll rejoice for every person who accepted that key (i.e. salvation). in the meantime, i'm very grateful that i don't have to worry about anyone who hasn't accepted a key to the gates of heaven gaining unlawful entry.

[Jorge S]

Once again, excellent writing. I am impressed with your style. What is your background in this area?

If you mean theologic or literary background I have none. English is not even my first language and I beg your pardon for any impropriety.

I'm just a sinner who acknowledges day after day that Jesus is the best reason to live by.

The rest of your post deals, I think, with issues like 'The Person of God', the 'Credibility of Miracles' and the 'Power of Forgiveness.' Emeraldgirl wanted her thread to be about 'Atonement' and perhaps we should not divert into other areas, even when they are obviously related.

Nevertheless, your points are recurrent interrogations from Atheism and have probably been discussed before. We'll meet in another thread.

Cheers.

[emeraldgirl]

QUOTE(emeraldgirl @ Jul 11 2006, 08:04 PM) *

So anyway, you can't know. You can know what the Bible says, but there is no way to know if the Bible is "God's Word" as professed. And it doesn't make the best case for itself if it is.

EmeraldGirl -

You might find these two books worth a look...

Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About The Christian Faith

Author: Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christiality

Author: Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

The later book addresses the issue of the Bible being inspired and factual. References (both secular and non-secular) are listed for all articles in both books.

But, then again - you found the Bible boring (as seen in another post you wrote), you will mostly sleep through these books.

I am curious as to whether you truly are interested in knowing more about Christianity or just like stirring up debates.

*sigh* Soulgrind, I notice this in every post. Sooner or later in any thread in Outer Court, a Christian has to say something just like your last phrase here. FWIW, I am at a point of deciding whether it's all just a total joke and trash it all, or possibly find something of merit in it and try (again) to get past my chronic doubting. But even if I didn't care a bit about Christianity, why is this big worry hanging over the heads of the Christians who engage us "non-believers" in Outer Court? If you are so concerned that I, or anyone else here, isn't sincere about finding out the questions and that your efforts will be wasted, then why even answer a single post? Just stay in Inner Court where I have no liberty to bother you.

And BTW, I have read several books on apologetics and hours and hours worth on the web. The topic doesn't bore me in the least. It's a topic I agonize over, or I would be cleaning the bathroom, like I should be, right now.

The only reason I even bother is that I still believe that Jesus rose from the dead, so I assume there would be a reason why that happened.

let me ask you, how fair would it be to those who HAVE accepted salvation, those who have dedicated their lives to serving God, those who have sacrificed their own selfishness and those who have been persecuted for their faith in God, to get up to heaven and find that they never had to spend one second loving Him, because He was going to let those who hated Him, who rejected Him, and who persecuted the faithful into heaven anyway? if everyone could get in regardless, then what would be the purpose of loving Him? why bother?

Lady C, this is part of what I mean when I said earlier that I don't spend a lot of worry on the afterlife. I believe that there is good in following God in this life. See, like you said, "what would be the purpose of loving Him" - do you really think it's all so you can go to heaven and avoid hell? Don't you see personal benefit in loving God, even if when you die, you just go to a pine box and that's all?

Emeraldgirl wanted her thread to be about 'Atonement' and perhaps we should not divert into other areas, even when they are obviously related.

Yes, it has gotten far off that point, but they all seem to do that.

[Guest LadyC]

oh good grief. of COURSE i see the benefit of loving and serving God in this life, and i don't waste time worrying about the afterlife. i was trying to address the issue of whether allowing unbelievers to go to hell was "unfair", a word that has popped up so many times in this thread, in a way that someone else could possibly grasp.

i have a personal relationship with God that is extremely fulfilling, and THAT is all the reward i need. spending eternity with Him is icing on the cake. i accepted Christ because i WANT to spend my life, on earth and in the hereafter, with the God i love. i didn't accept Christ just to avoid hell. if i had, i'd consider myself a fraud, my motives insincere, and i wonder if when i stood before God if He wouldn't say to me "depart from me, i never knew you".

there's a huge difference between christianity and religion. christianity is a personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour. i have that.

i'm also quite human, and have a limit to my patience with posts which seemingly want to challenge everything for the sake of being obtuse. i think it's time for me to focus my attention where it's not falling on deaf ears.

[emeraldgirl]

i didn't accept Christ just to avoid hell. if i had, i'd consider myself a fraud, my motives insincere, and i wonder if when i stood before God if He wouldn't say to me "depart from me, i never knew you".

Well, good. I'm glad to hear it.

I'm sorry you're getting frustrated. Me, too. My questions have no answer and that's the most aggravating thing of all.

[SoulGrind]

i'm also quite human, and have a limit to my patience with posts which seemingly want to challenge everything for the sake of being obtuse. i think it's time for me to focus my attention where it's not falling on deaf ears.

AMEN TO THAT! And blessings to you!

[SoulGrind]

I'm sorry you're getting frustrated. Me, too. My questions have no answer and that's the most aggravating thing of all.

Emerald - we all get frustrated. Some answers are no brainers (Biblically or otherwise). But others are more thought provoking. When dealing with spiritual difficulty, whether understanding scripture or dealing with life in general, the way most believers in Christ approach this is through prayer.

Have a blessed day,

[SoulGrind]

*sigh* Soulgrind, I notice this in every post. Sooner or later in any thread in Outer Court, a Christian has to say something just like your last phrase here. FWIW, I am at a point of deciding whether it's all just a total joke and trash it all, or possibly find something of merit in it and try (again) to get past my chronic doubting. But even if I didn't care a bit about Christianity, why is this big worry hanging over the heads of the Christians who engage us "non-believers" in Outer Court? If you are so concerned that I, or anyone else here, isn't sincere about finding out the questions and that your efforts will be wasted, then why even answer a single post? Just stay in Inner Court where I have no liberty to bother you.

It's probably for the same reason you keep trying to convince everyone you truly are searching.

Your last statement proves it again...

The only reason I even bother is that I still believe that Jesus rose from the dead, so I assume there would be a reason why that happened.

It's all very simple. God said that the wages of sin was death - in order to pay for sin, it is through the shedding of blood. Since all men are sinners, we must all pay with out own blood. But God loved us so much, that he sent his own Son (Christ), who was without sin (this is the key) to be put in our place. By doing so, Christ's blood was shed, but because Christ was without sin, Hell could not keep him - in other words, God pulled a fast one on Satan. Therefore, the blood of Christ is what saves us - the price is paid. Satan got what he wanted, blood for sin. The only problem is, it was the blood of one who was blameless - Christ - Who is Christ? Christ is God. God did this so man kind could avoid going to Hell. But God also put in a stipulation. While he loved us so much to sacrifice himself, he also gave us the choice to accept that sacrifice and be with Him for all eternity or deny that sacrifice and be with Satan, in Hell, for all eternity.

Does this make sense to you?

I am legitamately trying to answer your question - to shed light upon a subject you don't seem to grasp.

I am not trying to belittle you or antagonize you. I am sincerely trying to answer your legitimate question.

Sincerely,