Does God Have Free Will?

[EricH]

Consider the concept of omniscience. God hates sin, right? He knows that when he creates Adam and Eve that they will sin. He creates them anyway, knowing that he hates sin.

You are now forced to either of the following conclusions: Either he likes sin, but says he hates it (so much for honesty), or he didn't know that Adam and Eve were going to sin (so much for omniscience).

You really have not exhausted the possibilities here.

You have actually left out some possibilities

God's hatred of sin is clearly demonstrated in what He has said about it, and in terms of how He will ultimately deal with it (eternal separation from relationship with Him).

We also know that he know in advance that they would sin (the text indicates that as well)

So we have a situation where God, who hates sin, allowed it to enter the world. We must conclude, therefore, that there was something He wanted to accomplish that required that He allow for the possibility of sinful choices by His creation. This thing that He wanted was more important to Him than not allowing for the possibility of sin. God chose to do this in such a way that His own holiness was not violated, and He could accomplish this eternal purpose.

[anti-hillbilly]

Does God have free will? Any thoughts on this? How does this relate to man's free will and connection to sin?

Yes God has free will; he changes his mind and expresses regret in some verses in the bible. Man was made in God's image so I'd say that's the connection, both have free will, both can change their minds, both can express regret.

[sylvan3]

Consider the concept of omniscience. God hates sin, right? He knows that when he creates Adam and Eve that they will sin. He creates them anyway, knowing that he hates sin.

You are now forced to either of the following conclusions: Either he likes sin, but says he hates it (so much for honesty), or he didn't know that Adam and Eve were going to sin (so much for omniscience).

You really have not exhausted the possibilities here.

You have actually left out some possibilities

God's hatred of sin is clearly demonstrated in what He has said about it, and in terms of how He will ultimately deal with it (eternal separation from relationship with Him).

We also know that he know in advance that they would sin (the text indicates that as well)

So we have a situation where God, who hates sin, allowed it to enter the world. We must conclude, therefore, that there was something He wanted to accomplish that required that He allow for the possibility of sinful choices by His creation. This thing that He wanted was more important to Him than not allowing for the possibility of sin. God chose to do this in such a way that His own holiness was not violated, and He could accomplish this eternal purpose.

So sin is a good thing? It had positive value to God for some reason, therefore, it is good--he can't hate it. He needs sin for his purpose. "Can't build that world without sin--where is some"? That's your position?

Actually, there is no other way to look at it than by saying that God created sin.

[sylvan3]

Consider the concept of omniscience. God hates sin, right? He knows that when he creates Adam and Eve that they will sin. He creates them anyway, knowing that he hates sin.

You are now forced to either of the following conclusions: Either he likes sin, but says he hates it (so much for honesty), or he didn't know that Adam and Eve were going to sin (so much for omniscience).

You really have not exhausted the possibilities here.

You have actually left out some possibilities

God's hatred of sin is clearly demonstrated in what He has said about it, and in terms of how He will ultimately deal with it (eternal separation from relationship with Him).

We also know that he know in advance that they would sin (the text indicates that as well)

So we have a situation where God, who hates sin, allowed it to enter the world. We must conclude, therefore, that there was something He wanted to accomplish that required that He allow for the possibility of sinful choices by His creation. This thing that He wanted was more important to Him than not allowing for the possibility of sin. God chose to do this in such a way that His own holiness was not violated, and He could accomplish this eternal purpose.

So sin is a good thing? It had positive value to God for some reason, therefore, it is good--he can't hate it. He needs sin for his purpose. "Can't build that world without sin--where is some"? That's your position?

Actually, there is no other way to look at it than by saying that God created sin.

God didn't create sin. He created laws. According to 1 John, sin is the transgression of the law. Sin came into the world when Adam broke God's law concerning eating fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The fault lies with the manufacturer...

[sylvan3]

Prove me wrong.

We all need to remember one thing

[sylvan3]

Prove me wrong.

We all need to remember one thing

[EricH]

There is enough logically fallacious argumentation here on both sides (like accusing one of stalking). Lets keep it to the point

[redeemed098]

God is free to act an any way He sees fit that is consistent with His eternal attributes. There is no force external to God that constrains Him in any way

Therefore, to say that humans used free will irresponsibly (i.e. they CHOSE to sin), it would also be logical to say that the God used his own free will irresponsibly by CHOOSING to create humans who he knew (omniscience, remember) were going to sin. Sin is in the world because God made this CHOICE.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does....You see it is merely your own opinion that God used his own free will irresponsibly.......

God clearly did not set out to RULE you. He gave you rule and dominion and that means he will not interfere with your decisionmaking process. You have dominion over your own life. You are free to make whatever decisions you like and believe whatever you like. However you are not free from the consequences of making WRONG decisions....Sin has a penalty attached to it as does any Law. Break it, and you become a lawbreaker.. It only takes one broken Law to become a lawbreaker....You seem to be of the opinion that God has done something wrong......How...???? has he not given you the choice to say yes while at the same time having the freedom to say NO...???? So should there NOT be a consequence for sin sylvan...??? Should murder go unpunnished....? Should adultery go unpunnished..? Should stealing go unpunnished...??? Would YOU require justice if someone murdered someone YOU loved, or would you require justice if someone stole from YOU....????? Who then do you think YOU are to deny God HIS perfect justice....?????

God made man with the ability to choose to say YES to him and to HIS way while having the freedom to say NO.....In doing this God did not act irresponsibly..

What he did was perfectly RIGHT in every way. Your opinion is irrelevant to that... Your opinion is equal to LESS than KNOWING.... Less than knowing is NOT Truth. God has spoken and acted and dealt with in every way possible PERFECTLY in ALL circumstances.....I'll say it again...God is always perfectly RIGHT. In creating us as he did, he is therefore perfectly RIGHT. In creating us with the ability to choose to do right whilst also being able to choose to do wrong, he was again perfectly RIGHT..You see when he spoke and gave man dominion and rule over the earth, he meant it....If you want to blame anyone for the condition the earth is in right now, then blame your own part in the corporate sin of ALL men. Dont blame GOD....Hes simply the LawMAKER....It is you who is the lawBREAKER.....

Regards,

Ben.

[sylvan3]

God is free to act an any way He sees fit that is consistent with His eternal attributes. There is no force external to God that constrains Him in any way

Therefore, to say that humans used free will irresponsibly (i.e. they CHOSE to sin), it would also be logical to say that the God used his own free will irresponsibly by CHOOSING to create humans who he knew (omniscience, remember) were going to sin. Sin is in the world because God made this CHOICE.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does....You see it is merely your own opinion that God used his own free will irresponsibly.......

God clearly did not set out to RULE you. He gave you rule and dominion and that means he will not interfere with your decisionmaking process. You have dominion over your own life. You are free to make whatever decisions you like and believe whatever you like. However you are not free from the consequences of making WRONG decisions....Sin has a penalty attached to it as does any Law. Break it, and you become a lawbreaker.. It only takes one broken Law to become a lawbreaker....You seem to be of the opinion that God has done something wrong......How...???? has he not given you the choice to say yes while at the same time having the freedom to say NO...???? So should there NOT be a consequence for sin sylvan...??? Should murder go unpunnished....? Should adultery go unpunnished..? Should stealing go unpunnished...??? Would YOU require justice if someone murdered someone YOU loved, or would you require justice if someone stole from YOU....????? Who then do you think YOU are to deny God HIS perfect justice....?????

God made man with the ability to choose to say YES to him and to HIS way while having the freedom to say NO.....In doing this God did not act irresponsibly..

What he did was perfectly RIGHT in every way. Your opinion is irrelevant to that... Your opinion is equal to LESS than KNOWING.... Less than knowing is NOT Truth. God has spoken and acted and dealt with in every way possible PERFECTLY in ALL circumstances.....I'll say it again...God is always perfectly RIGHT. In creating us as he did, he is therefore perfectly RIGHT. In creating us with the ability to choose to do right whilst also being able to choose to do wrong, he was again perfectly RIGHT..You see when he spoke and gave man dominion and rule over the earth, he meant it....If you want to blame anyone for the condition the earth is in right now, then blame your own part in the corporate sin of ALL men. Dont blame GOD....Hes simply the LawMAKER....It is you who is the lawBREAKER.....

Regards,

Ben.

I argue the case against the God conceptualized in the Bible based on logic. This logic comes from definitions of words that I do not invent. The word "perfect" essentially means "being entirely without fault or defect". The word "imperfect" essentially means "not perfect" or containing fault and error.

Is God perfect? By definition, yes. Is the world perfect? No.

The word omniscient means "all knowing". This would include knowing what the future holds.

Is God omniscient? By definition, yes.

If we accept that a perfect God created the world but that world is imperfect (i.e. sin is in the world), we have an incongruity. The imperfect world would indicate that perfect God's creation is imperfect. This would then render God as imperfect.

However, you will say that perfect God gave us free will and we were the ones who made the world imperfect. However, I will say that omniscient God knew that the world would become imperfect, but he allowed it anyway.

Therefore, we now have a concept that is called "perfect imperfection" or "perfect sin" which is a total contradiction. The concept of God as portrayed in the Bible is totally imcomprehensible based on this. If the concept of perfect imperfection is valid, it means that anyone could claim to be God. All they would have to do is say that they wanted every imperfect aspect of them to be the way it is--and this is totally nonsensical.

Of course, everyone should--and will-- feel free to fault my logic. I will be happy to study the responses. However, I will ask that you, similarly, give reasons, based on logic, why I should believe in the existence of God as portrayed in the Bible. Answers such as "it's in the Bible" don't cut it. That would be asking me to make a conclusion based on a supposed fact. My example has no supposed facts--it might have faulty logic that I can't see--but there are no supposed facts.

Thank you

[followerofjesus]

2 Corinthians 1:12

12Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.

You will not find Gods infinite wisdom in the flesh. These are questions that can be reserved for judgement day. I have many questions too that man cannot answer.