How can a God of love allow stoning as a death penalty ?

[sylvan3]

Whether it is a prophecy or not is not relevant to me. I am questioning the character of God as it is presented in the Bible. There are major contradictions between a perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent deity and the anthropomorphic character that is presented in the Bible. As I have said previously, when one is faced with the decision as to whether this book is inspired by man or a perfect deity, the human influence is overwhelming. It plays like an animated movie created in Hollywood.

And that is the real issue. The context is irrelevant to you, so it follows that understanding the real meaning is also irrelevant. The passage you provoded does not prove your point because the linguistic signals in the text simply do not allow one to land where you have landed. So, at least to me, it seams you have landed where you have, not based on what one reads in the text, but based on your own thinking. The passage you provided actually speaks to the Bibles inspiration. Ezekiel was written ling befor the fall of Jerusalem, yet predicted it.

As I said previously, the real issue is whether or not a perfect deity would need to resort to calling out to humans, via his voice, to order them to kill. I think it is ludicrous. I still fail to see where context has anything to do with it--prophecy or not. The book is the word of God according to you. If it needs context or is too complicated to prevent, what you call, a wrong interpretation, there is a fallibility to the presentation. I have much greater expectations from what is touted as the word of God.

Besides, there are plenty of verses in the Bible where orders to kill are given. I don't think you could claim the context card on all of them, but you might try.

Also, do you think that there were any people back in Biblical times that heard voices as a result of mental illness? If so, how did they tell when it was the "real" God or the mental illness that caused it?

"If men are bound in chains, held fast by cords of affliction he tells them what they have done, that they have sinned arrogantly. He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil. If they obey and serve him they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity and their years in contentment. But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge." (Job 36:8-12)

Deuteronomy Chapter 28 Blessings and Curses...Study it carefully also. Mental illness is mentioned. Listen. "If you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

The Lord will send on you CURSES, CONFUSION AND REBUKE IN ALL THAT YOU PUT YOUR HANDS TO until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in foresaking him. The Lord will afflict you with MADNESS, BLINDNESS AND CONFUSION OF MIND. AT MIDDAY YOU WILL GROPE ABOUT LIKE A BLINDMAN IN THE DARK. The Lord will give you an ANXIOUS MIND, eyes weary with longing and a despairing heart.

These are clearly indications that there is sin in a mans life. He needs to repent, as he is held fast in cords of affliction.

Though Job was a righteous man he still saw fit to REPENT in sackcloth and ashes after his discourse with God. God is the one who ALLOWS these things to happen. WHY....????? Because when a mans enemies come against him he will turn to God and seek his mercy and forgiveness, so great is his affliction.

Jesus said, "My sheep will KNOW my voice, and the voice of the stranger he will not follow." That scripture alone answers your question on "VOICES".

Clearly he has demonstrated the NEED to discern between the voice of the True shepherd and that of the stranger...YES there ARE other voices.

What often plagues a man in the many different voices he may hear in his head. The many thoughts that swim around in his mind causing him to struggle to grab hold of simply ONE. He becomes anxious and doesnt know which voice he should respond to. Eventually he WILL respond to one of them. But will it be a voice that leads to LIFE or to DEATH....Dont forget, suicide begins with a thought process....What voice is one who suicides listening to..????

The God of the bible gave us all through his word this solemn promise if we are to Love HIM and serve HIM and have no other God beside HIM....

Listen carefully to these words..Though simple they are perfect....."Do not bow down before the gods of the other nations around you, or worship them or follow their PRACTICES. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your FOOD AND WATER, I WILL TAKE AWAY SICKNESS FROM AMONG YOU, AND NONE WILL MISCARRY OR BE BARREN IN YOUR LAND. I WILL GIVE YOU A FULL LIFE SPAN."

It is plain for all to see that this OUGHT to be the condition of a people who love and serve and honour God above all else...

Is it...???????

Regards,

Ben.

I appreciate what you say; however I am struck by the numerous comments by various individuals who say things are "plain to see" in the Bible. I am not sure if that is exactly what you are trying to say, but I am addressing those who seem to think that the Bible makes so much sense and that a person who doesn't "get it" isn't being "open" (not necessarily my contention with you).

I can tell you that I am on very firm footing, at least with myself, in the sense that I KNOW that this book is--minimally--highly, highly difficult to comprehend, if not incomprehensible. What has happened over the years is that humankind has interpreted it in ways that suit the purposes of the reader or group of readers. The complexity of the book allows for these interpretations.

This is particularly true when one faces the numerous contradictions that are present in the book. A typical response, from a believer when faced with a contradiction, is to offer some tortuous explanation in an attempt to reconcile the contradiction (which often makes no sense), and then state that there is no contradiction.

When one is faced with a decision as to the legitmacy of any given thing, one can apply the "either it is or it isn't" principle. For example, if one is on a jury determining the guilt or innocence of a person, one will look at evidence to see what makes sense in terms whether the person is or isn't guilty. All the possibilities need to be reviewed, and common sense needs to be applied.

Using this in contemplating the Bible as the word of God, well, it either it is or isn't. If it isn't the word of God, it is written by man. So far, I see overwhelming evidence of human fallibility in that book. I believe many people have used tortuous explanations in order to make it seem that it is divinely inspired. However, we still come back to many ridiculous stories about 900-year-old men, and talking snakes, and an perfect deity that gets angry and orders his creations to kill other creations of his.

To me it is a nonsensical book that has all the traits of human inspiration.

My response as a follower of Christ when I was first confronted with the issue of contradictions in the bible was one of surprise. Gods word is supposed to be flawless and perfect in every way. I did not simply lie down and ignore these contradictions. I investigated them and asked God to reveal to me how it would be possible for his word to be flawless and yet contradictory. He did not disappoint me....

The first and the only one I choose to speak of here for reasons so as not to type too much and lose your interest, is the issue of Davids wife having NO children and yet in another part of the bible having five children...

There is no contradiction here at all. The Michael who is named as having five children is not Davids wife at all. She is said to be the wife of Adriel the Meholathite. Daughter of Saul YES but Saul's OTHER daughter. The daughter Michael that David wed had no children. You will clearly see through the books of the Chronicles that Davids only children came through Bathsheba. This I know is only one contradiction answered, but it clearly demonstrates how easily they can be if you look hard enough and seek the advice of God. "Ask and you shall receive." I asked.

It is true that there are many copyist errors that have resulted from the many new translations, but in the original manuscripts there are none. Gods word IS flawless and perfect. Not one of the copyist errors I might add detract in any way at all from the key message of the bible. Mans need for salvation, and Gods' provision of that saviour. None of the spoken of contradictions or copyist errors alter the message that Jesus Is Lord. That Jesus came to pay the penalty for the sins of men, and that through his death he has brought LIFE to them that believe upon the name of the son of God.

If the bible is not the word of God, then God is a Liar and no one is saved. If the bible is not the word of God and Christ has not been raised from death, then my faith is futile and I am to be pitied more than any man for I live my life to serve a Faith that does not exist. If the bible is not the word of God, then I might as well just pack up and go home. My faith is futile. I can admit that.....Can you admit the futility of NOT believing if Christ HAS indeed been raised from death..??? Jesus said that unless a man repents he shall perish. If this is true, then you need to do something about it. If it is not, then Jesus is simply a liar and you may as well just eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....In other words, Lifes short so party hard.

The bible tells us that the UNdiscerning man cannot know the things of God, indeed that they will seem foolish to him. Something has to happen to you for you to begin to see as God sees. HE must give you HIS spirit. Just as no one else can know YOUR thoughts because no one else can have YOUR spirit, YOU cannot know Gods thoughts unless you have HIS..

"For who among men can know the thoughts of a man except that man himself..??? So it is with God. No one can know God unless HE makes himself known to YOU. God is spiritually discerned. He must reveal himself to YOU if you are to KNOW him. The bible says that you will find him when "you will seek me and find me when you seek me with ALL of your HEART....God is always true and faithful to his word...He says you can find him, that means you CAN. But you must HEAR with a right heart attitude.

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart O Lord you will NOT despise." (Psalm 51:17 This is Davids cry of mercy to the Lord after his sin with Bathsheba...) God is looking for true humility....He opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

"This is the one I esteem: He who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word." (Isaiah 66:2)

"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord and he will have mercy on him, and to our God for he will FREELY pardon. (Isaiah 57:6,7)

To say that the bible is NOT Gods Word is to call God a Liar.

Are you prepared to do that ..??? Because calling those who proclaim his name liars doesnt matter. It isnt them you are accountable to.

Regards,

Ben.

I can understand the point you are trying to make. But, you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven. This is my opinion, but it is not a baseless opinion.

For example, if I say that The New York Times is a newspaper, it is a fact because I can prove it.

If you say that a 950-year-old man lived years ago, because the Bible said he did, it is not a fact because you can't prove it. It would therefore follow that other claims in the Bible are extremely suspect--certainly regarding salvation. These are not facts, it is that simple. It is not so much me saying something else is a lie as it is me being honest about what I feel. If you are disposed to believe the Bible because that is what is true to you, I would not try to stop you.

Please remember it is as easy for me to dismiss the Christian faith as it is easy for you to dismiss all the other religions in the world. They would say the same thing to you regarding, "Aren't you worried?" (i.e. about not believing in what they believe).

Look at it this way: If there are 500 religions in the world, you disbelieve 499 and I disbelieve 500.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

That is correct you disbelieve 500 Religions. However Religion has nothing to do with Faith in God.

Peace,

Dave

[pointer]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

[TheProcess]

I think a better question is, how can anyone reconcile a loving God with one who lets infants or non-Christian children burn for eternity in Hell, because they were too young to accept God or because their parents/circumstances had not yet allowed them to know of the Bible?

For your information, infants and children upon death go to be with the Lord! You sure paint the Lord God as quite the tyrant!

He is holy and righteous!

An example of how much BibleGod cares for children:

2 Samuel 12:15,18 (KJV) And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.... And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.

The Bible tells us that God killed an innocent baby.

Another example:

Exodus 12:29-30 (KJV) And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

How many babies and young children would this massacre include?

[pointer]

How many babies and young children would this massacre include?

God does not massacre. He will destroy the trash in due course. In the meantime, he warns, and gives everyone the opportunity to make their peace with Him through repentance and faith.

[pointer]

How many babies and young children would this massacre include?

God does not massacre. He will destroy the trash in due course. In the meantime, he warns, and gives everyone the opportunity to make their peace with Him through repentance and faith.

I see, that was a warning.

Even a child can see that.

Edited July 15, 2006 by pointer

[sylvan3]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact. A fact is something that has actual existence (either now or previously) and can be proven.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

One has to wonder why the Bible, if it is the word of God, would not contain verifiable facts in order to substantiate many of its fantastic claims. This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Edited July 16, 2006 by sylvan3

[pointer]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact.

Agreed. It may be fiction, but may not be.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed.

Or that they did not. As they are mentioned only in part of the Bible that is held to be allegorical, it is unimportant.

Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

That is basic bias! Even if the Bible claimed literal fact here, there is no reason in principle why this is not possible.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

That would be no barrier to faith, though.

What is fantastic for mankind, like Superman, is not fantastic for God. One would expect miracles from the creator. It should be realised that, when Jesus was on earth, he did not use miracles except to draw attention to his words, and his loving intentions. What he did not want, and what he condemned the Jews for demanding, was miracles as intellectually compelling, in-your-face 'proof'. This is because he does not want followers who follow for the wrong reasons.

This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Where is the reason in that? It is pure opinion at present.

[botticelli]

"Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality. "

i hope i see you when you see him

Edited July 16, 2006 by botticelli

[sylvan3]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact.

Agreed. It may be fiction, but may not be.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed.

Or that they did not. As they are mentioned only in part of the Bible that is held to be allegorical, it is unimportant.

Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

That is basic bias! Even if the Bible claimed literal fact here, there is no reason in principle why this is not possible.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

That would be no barrier to faith, though.

What is fantastic for mankind, like Superman, is not fantastic for God. One would expect miracles from the creator. It should be realised that, when Jesus was on earth, he did not use miracles except to draw attention to his words, and his loving intentions. What he did not want, and what he condemned the Jews for demanding, was miracles as intellectually compelling, in-your-face 'proof'. This is because he does not want followers who follow for the wrong reasons.

This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Where is the reason in that? It is pure opinion at present.

I will let my previous argument stand.