End Times?

[LadyRaven]

I have been on this site a few times now and have read the posts about the rapture. Is there anyone who thinks that this isn't the end times?

Sure it's the end times, it's been the end times since Jesus left. I'm not premillenial though so I interpret that fact differently than people who believe in the left behind scenario.

M'Lady - did you mean to say that you are not "pretribulational" ?

Or did you really mean that you are not "premillenial" ? (which means that you do *not* believe Jesus returns physically and bodily to the Earth *before* the milleial reign of Rev ch 20).

thanx

all pretrib, mid trib and post trib are premillenial, meaning the rapture is before the millenium.

Post millenials believe that the rapture and the second coming are the same thing and happen after the millenium

Amillenials believe that the millenium is the church age, the term 1000 yrs meaning the perfect amount of time

I am both not pretrib and premill, I waffle between post and amillenial.

However, all believers are pan millenial....the millenium will pan out when it is planned to just as God says....

[Guest jckduboise]

Rapture is a nice dream for those who fear the tribulation. Rapture will be only for those who endure to their end. And then all will who are His will be resurrected or caught up in the sky with Him..at His return only.

Blessings

Jackie -

What do you mean by the "Tribulation" ?

the Tribulation period, you know the much feared 7 years that everyone is trying to escape through rapture.

[Guest jckduboise]

Jackie -

What do you mean by the "Tribulation" ?

the Tribulation period, you know the much feared 7 years that everyone is trying to escape through rapture.

YES - that does seem to be what I am reading.

But whether one believes they will (or even desires to) miss this thing they call the Tribulation, what is it?

Why do they call it the Tribulation? Where is it in Scripture? And what does Scripture say about it?

So many people seem to be using it, yet I cannot find a seven year period in the Bible called the Tribulation...

Not taking the bait Shlomo..have a good time..maybe someone else will..blessings to you

[Floatingaxe]

Found in Revelation 7:

14-17Then he told me, "These are those who come from the great tribulation, and they've washed their robes, scrubbed them clean in the blood of the Lamb. That's why they're standing before God's Throne. They serve him day and night in his Temple. The One on the Throne will pitch his tent there for them: no more hunger, no more thirst, no more scorching heat. The Lamb on the Throne will shepherd them, will lead them to spring waters of Life. And God will wipe every last tear from their eyes."

[Guest jckduboise]

Not taking the bait Shlomo..have a good time..maybe someone else will..blessings to you

No bait. I just wanna know why people use that word so often.

Bless you too sister !

[LadyRaven]

M'Lady - did you mean to say that you are not "pretribulational" ?

Or did you really mean that you are not "premillenial" ? (which means that you do *not* believe Jesus returns physically and bodily to the Earth *before* the milleial reign of Rev ch 20).

thanx

I am both not pretrib and premill, I waffle between post and amillenial.

Ah, so your post was correct. That was just very suprising for me to read about you, so I suspected that you simply mistyped...

However, all believers are pan millenial....the millenium will pan out when it is planned to just as God says....

Yea and AMEN !!

Er, why would that be such a suprise to read?

[Guest jckduboise]

Not taking the bait Shlomo..have a good time..maybe someone else will..blessings to you

No bait. I just wanna know why people use that word so often.

Bless you too sister !

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

here is an example of it being used that is not about the end times and the Great Tribulation

2Cr 7:4 Great [is] my boldness of speech toward you, great [is] my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

I find it amazing that there is not mention of a rapture coming so that those of us in Christ Jesus have to endure the Tribulation Period.

Nope not a pre-trib nor mid trib person..end trib yes during the second coming of Christ when He descends from the heavens..the sleeping will rise from their slumber and those of us who have chosen Him and the 144,0000 who have been marked with His seal. We will all be caught up into the air with Him at that time.

So have I answered your question? And are you now going to pull out the old boxing gloves and try to have a sparring match with me on who is right and who is wrong according to scripture? Smiles and handshake..if so I am done with this conversation..it gets us know where. In fact I have spent too much time in this particular thread. This topic is how do you say? Oh! I've got it..a dead horse! And I for one am tired of beating it.

Blessings to you

[LadyRaven]

I am both not pretrib and premill, I waffle between post and amillenial.

Ah, so your post was correct. That was just very suprising for me to read about you, so I suspected that you simply mistyped...

Er, why would that be such a suprise to read?

Nothing very mysterious. Just that generally Evengelical Christians read and interpret the Bible much more literally than an Amillenial belief requires. An Amillenialist must symbolize or spiritualize much of Scripture. And often (PLEASE NO HATE MAIL FOR THIS!) are not frequent Bible readers or studiers, but rely on Church doctrinal teaching. And you did not strike me as someone who fit that (admittedly stereotyped) description.

I have never met an avid Bible reader and student of Scripture that was an Amill. But, perhaps, now I have.

But what is really neat is that you and I can disagree on our Eschatological beliefs, but still agree on the weightier matters; matters of Eternal Significance like the saving work of grace accomplished at the cross, repentance, salvation, and sanctification. We can respect each other and speak the Truth in love. Too often the Church allows these small disagreements to cause division rather than allow the *huge* volume of agreement to promote unity!

Well, that explains it then... I agree that we should not let these things interfere with our fellowship. I was just curious cause about everyone who has posted with me knows that I am of the reformed tradition and that belief is quite strong amongst our ranks, and in fact MANY solid teachers and students of the Bible have this opinion where I hang out LOL

I also realise that I've been wrong before and it would not upset the universe if I find that one of my brothers or sisters with whom I disagree is actually right. It might upset ME, but the universe will go on The glass I see out of is still tinted you know. It's very important to remember this.

I tend more toward Postmillenial than Amill, however Ithink they have some good points also. And sometimes I look at the world and just don't see the improvement and revival necessary for the Post millenial system to occur. Granted that is based on my own interpretation of current events, but thats how I see it sometimes.

I do believe that it is appropriate to interpret apocalyptic material in a symbolic way, as it is filled with symbols. However, I think these symbols remain fairly consistent through scripture. if the sun means something in revelation it will mean the same thing in fulfilled prophecy and in other similar texts. I don't believe you can interpret the sun moon, stars as authority figures such as kings or religious leaders in Isaiah and then as representing horse racing in another book (I used a stupid example on purpose). Therefore I have a very limited and controlled symbolic interpretation, and only interpret symbolic passages symbolicly. For instance, I believe that I am to tithe and that I am to wear headcoverings. Those commands were not symbolic (though I do believe they exist for a symbolic purpose and that when they are followed there is a symbolism occuring). I've very very picky about doctrine and try not to explain things away via symbolism.

[Guest jckduboise]

i have read your words Sclomo and appreciate the correction as to the actual time frame of The Tribulation Period..did I say that right? anyway..yes you are right there is a 3 1/2 year period of what appears to be peace.

And since this conversation has turned from the "rapture" to the actual Revelation of John I wanted to get some input and feed back..hope you and Ladyraven don't mind.

My question now is- there is an outward peace that the peace treaty affects. But is there a spiritual peace as well? How many will be in a spiritual tribulation that will cause many to chose the Anti-Christ over God? Is there not somewhere in the bible that talks of a famine or drout that is spiritually intended for lack of hearing God's word?

I only ask this because I see people relying too much on the physical aspects of what will occur during this whole 7 yr period when the possibility of any of us actually hearing or seeing any trumpets blow or any bowls of wrath being dumped on us, is quite unlikely.

But to further the physical side of the first 3 1/2 yrs is the fact that just because there is a peace treaty does not mean that there will be peace in our own homelands. The peace treaty is to be with Israel. Am I correct? We will be dealing with an entire world during this time..not only Israel and its own dilemas.

What I am seeing develop in between the lines of Revelation is that people are looking outward instead of inward..toward their own lives, toward their own countries, their own government officials..all of which is a lure of satan so that he can blind side us with a sucker punch..just as what happened during 9/11.

forgive me if I am not as eloquent and educated verbally as you and Ladyraven appear to be. I hope that what I have said is not to simplified and misunderstood.

[Floatingaxe]

I was thinking of this as well, but as I believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture, it still is a matter regarding the peacetime that I need to understand. I do believe that because the Church has been removed, that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus Christ has also. So, it follows, then, that the darkness of those times will be spiritually very dark. Apart from the wonderful redemptive message that the 144,000 bring, then it will be very, very difficult to find Christ, as the convicting work of the Holy Spirit will not be happening.

So while a "false" peace will come upon the earth, I believe it will be an utterly black time spiritually.

Blessings!