Homosexuality and Christians

[pennyinabottlecap]

a pretty controversial subject for anyone but wat the heck.

i should probably start this by letting y'all know i work as a worship leader and occasional speaker. At one of the nights i played a worship set, and i was intense. fantastic response and everyone connected with God. but after the set, a woman in her early 20's came up to me crying, and asked, "why does God hate me?" when i asked her to explain, she said she was a lesbian, and her church said they weren't going to necessarily ban her from the church, but that it would be appreciated if she didnt attend their services. she went to the services anyway, but she was treated so poorly she couldnt take it anymore. she transferred churches 4 times and the same thing happened over, and over, and over again. she felt so dirty when christians took their so called "initiative" with nothing but good intentions told her that homosexuality is a sin and if she didnt stop, she would go to hell.

I'll finish her story in a second, but what in the heck are we as a christian body doing? please understand that i dont condone homosexuality, but i will also NOT condone the actions of any church who does such a thing, and i believe neither does God! I know that not all christians will kick out a homosexual, but i've watched and seen people shunning, ridiculing, mocking, avoiding, and excluding homosexuals from on and offstage. this woman was the first to approach me, and i've spoken on it since, but what is going on? are we in the position of God? why do the bold christians approach homosexuals as if they were on a mission from God, but to talk to someone about their heterosexual sex life avoid it like the plague? who are we to judge them on any sin? If a liar comes into our church, we dont ask them to leave, we don't go up and discuss their shortcomings of the kingdom of God. why should we do so to the homosexual? are not all sins equal in the eyes of God? can God accept one sin and not the other? absolutely Not!

Back to the woman. After calming her down a bit, i apologized as a christian, for what her churches had done to her, because as a christian, i am a member of the church, and i, as we all should, should accept the responsibilty. i told her God doesn't hate her, and He loves her just as much as anyone else.

we talked for a while about her personal life, we prayed, and she left. then the Father of one of her churches that asked her not to come anymore came up to me and asked if she had "confessed her sinful path" to me. i said yes, and asked why he asked her not to attend his church anymore. he said that if she was to live sinfully, he wouldn't condone her behavior and allow her to come and hinder the congregation in his church. i'm not going to lie, i was angered by this. pretty passionately, i said "first off, any church is God's, not yours. second, The church is an invitation to meet with God, not some kind of priveledge to pull away as a punishment. 3rd, have you ever lied?" he admitted he had. "and is not all sin equal?" he admitted in God's sight, it is. "then are you not as guilty of homosexuality as she is?" he started to get as huffy as i was so i ended our conversation and i wasn't invited back. but several memebers of his church still stay in contact with me, and have become friends with the woman who i was speaking about.

I just felt the need to share that. i know it's controversial, and i'm sorry for that, but it needs to be said. God loves homosexuals as much as He loves me.

i love you.

[KeilanS]

I think that is bad to push away a homosexual. How can we expect them to ever turn away from that path if they are rejected in the house of God itself?

[apothanein kerdos]

If someone sins and feels no moral guilt abotu this sin, about offending God, and does not desire change (in other words, they see no problem with it), then Biblically that is grounds to be removed.

If someone, however, struggles with a sin, does fall into it from time to time, but realizes the danger of it and works to move away from it....that person should be embraced.

[Floatingaxe]

When an unbeliever sins, we expect them to be unaware at best, and we welcome them into the church in order to introduce them to Christ. We befriend them, and love them, and live out our lives before them, and continue as they continue to be led and teachable.

When a Christian chooses to live in sin, and refuses to repent, then the Church has something to say about it. Paul is clear about such things. We are to have nothing to do with them after appropriate warnings. This is a hard task, you can be sure. But it is necessary, in order for them to come to repentence. That is our job as a church. If they don't come to repentence, it is a sad thing thing, but these hard things are necessary in order that the Church not become diluted. One looking from the outside of the Church may consider this unloving, but it is the most loving thing we can do...following the Word in helping one come to repentance.

[pennyinabottlecap]

I think that is bad to push away a homosexual. How can we expect them to ever turn away from that path if they are rejected in the house of God itself?

and if we dont allow God's love to flow to them through us, how are they wrong in thinking God hates them? havent we given that impression? is an apology not owed?

[pennyinabottlecap]

If someone sins and feels no moral guilt abotu this sin, about offending God, and does not desire change (in other words, they see no problem with it), then Biblically that is grounds to be removed.

If someone, however, struggles with a sin, does fall into it from time to time, but realizes the danger of it and works to move away from it....that person should be embraced.

i agree to a point, but is it about guilt? did god only embrace those who felt guilty about sin? does He not love marilyn manson who feels no guilt whatsoever living in sin? an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. just becuse someone continues to push away, He doesnt leave them out to dry, and if we claim to be part of the body of God, then can we leave them out to dry?

[pennyinabottlecap]

When an unbeliever sins, we expect them to be unaware at best, and we welcome them into the church in order to introduce them to Christ. We befriend them, and love them, and live out our lives before them, and continue as they continue to be led and teachable.

When a Christian chooses to live in sin, and refuses to repent, then the Church has something to say about it. Paul is clear about such things. We are to have nothing to do with them after appropriate warnings. This is a hard task, you can be sure. But it is necessary, in order for them to come to repentence. That is our job as a church. If they don't come to repentence, it is a sad thing thing, but these hard things are necessary in order that the Church not become diluted. One looking from the outside of the Church may consider this unloving, but it is the most loving thing we can do...following the Word in helping one come to repentance.

Paul speaks of Praying for the christian who falls into sin as well! we dont give up on those who lie or curse or take the lords name in vain even though they do it CONSTANTLY, why give up on a homosexual>?

[billie]

When an unbeliever sins, we expect them to be unaware at best, and we welcome them into the church in order to introduce them to Christ. We befriend them, and love them, and live out our lives before them, and continue as they continue to be led and teachable.

When a Christian chooses to live in sin, and refuses to repent, then the Church has something to say about it. Paul is clear about such things. We are to have nothing to do with them after appropriate warnings. This is a hard task, you can be sure. But it is necessary, in order for them to come to repentence. That is our job as a church. If they don't come to repentence, it is a sad thing thing, but these hard things are necessary in order that the Church not become diluted. One looking from the outside of the Church may consider this unloving, but it is the most loving thing we can do...following the Word in helping one come to repentance.

Paul speaks of Praying for the christian who falls into sin as well! we dont give up on those who lie or curse or take the lords name in vain even though they do it CONSTANTLY, why give up on a homosexual>?

She's not advocating giving up on them. Of course the loving thing to do would be to pray for them first, whilst doing all those other things she mentioned first and after they've been asked to leave. Those who do the things you've mentioned should be treated no differently than this girl.

[Floatingaxe]

Penny...

It's our job as Christians to help people come to repentance. Especially true in the lives of those who say they are believers. But it is by their fruit we know them. Does this woman have any fruit? Has she brought any to Christ? Likely not. So, you could safely assume she is not a true believer. You need to consider her an unbeliever and try to win her to the Lord.

Does she have remorse for her sin? Does she want to turn away from it and follow Christ? If she is not wanting to be led or taught truth, then you need to leave her be, but leave her with the knowledge that you are there for her, and that you love her in the Lord.

[apothanein kerdos]

If someone sins and feels no moral guilt abotu this sin, about offending God, and does not desire change (in other words, they see no problem with it), then Biblically that is grounds to be removed.

If someone, however, struggles with a sin, does fall into it from time to time, but realizes the danger of it and works to move away from it....that person should be embraced.

i agree to a point, but is it about guilt? did god only embrace those who felt guilty about sin? does He not love marilyn manson who feels no guilt whatsoever living in sin? an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. just becuse someone continues to push away, He doesnt leave them out to dry, and if we claim to be part of the body of God, then can we leave them out to dry?

Actually, those who feel no guilty, though we can engage them in discussion as to why they should feel guilt, should not be among the fellowship. You are placing a higher emphasis on "love" (which I believe even your idea of Biblical love is off) over personal holiness. Yes, we are called to reach out to people, to go into all the world and make disciples. But this is one verse contained within 1,000's....and is not even the greatest commandment. THe greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. Anything that would put any of that in danger, or put someone else in danger of this, must be avoided.

So assume you bring in a non-repentant homosexual to the church in order to reach out to him. He does not believe he is sinning and therefor econtinues about in his sin. He befriends another male adult at the church, who has been struggling with homosexuality, and eventually convinces him that this sin is okay. At this point, we have done a very unloving thing; we have let someone trying to repent to God be devoured by a wolf. We have allowed the greatest commandment to be violated and though we may feel pious and loving in allowing an unrepentand homosexual in our church, we have done so by sacrificing a truly repentant brother in the process.

We need to look at the bigger picture. We can reach out to all, but church is not about evangelism. When we meet at church it isn't to get people saved, it's to fellowship and grow from other believers. This is why Paul instructs the various churches over 10 times to remove sinful people (those who refused to repent) from their midsts. He did not say "don't reach out to unrepentant sinners" but instead did say to exclude them from fellowship within the church.

It really is a thin line...on one hand you become too exclusive but on the other you become too inclusive.