Dangerous Heresy

[Smalcald]

God also promises us suffering on this earth if we are to be Christians if we are to really live His life, the narrow path. How does that fit?

In fact scripture says that those who desire to be rich fall into a snare. Listen to the Word, it says to those who even DESIRE to be rich, the longing for all of those things which seem to be what some of these preachers are telling us to pray for, is wrong. We should not pray for wealth. Certainly we should pray to feed and cloth our family,

[stacey c]

It is you who said "God is at our beg and call" You have misquoted people,

If you read how many times in the New Testament Jesus say "ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH". I supose you think He is arrogant as well. I supose you think He is in heresy as well.

no, this is what was said...And He will answer ANYTHING I ask believing. pretty much the same thing as being at your beck and call. Do you really think you can command God to do things?

you also said this...

If you don't permit God to enter into anything on your behalf, He won't

who permited Jesus to die on the cross for you? who permited him to enter into the sacrafice that he made for us all?

and you said this...

Also The Bible says God cannot do anything without people having faith in Him

who had faith in God as he was creating the universe?

RunningGator, I quoted directly from scripture, if you have the problem with that scripture, you need to take it up with God. He put it in there, I just take Him at His Word. It's called faith.

[stacey c]

RunningGator, I quoted directly from scripture, if you have the problem with that scripture, you need to take it up with God. He put it in there, I just take Him at His Word. It's called faith.

yes you did. Too bad you didnt read those passages in context...

John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Matt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

none of these verses puts God under our command as you have suggested

let me ask you this, do you think that Paul was a man of faith?

RunningGator, will we ever agree on anything? Yes I do believe Paul was a great man of faith. Through all his trials and tribulations he never lost his focus of Christ and preaching the gosple. What a great man of God he was!!!!!

[Xan]

Yes, the Copelands teach that. You are wrong. We can tie the hands of God with many attitudes, and unyieldedness is a biggie..

Yes, but they are not talking about Yieldedness. They are saying that God needs our permission to step into the world, which is a direct assault on God's sovereignty. We may hinder God's work in our lives, but God does not need our permission to operate in this realm.

You are simply confusing issues.

If you don't permit God to enter into anything on your behalf, He won't. Truly, I think we are dealing with alarmists and they are crying, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!"

I don't agree with everything that people here say are Word of Faith beliefs, but I surely love to hear the Copelands and I love Joyce Meyer, and yeah, man--I watch Creflo Dollar almost every morning!---and these so-called quotes of Copeland I am free to discount or embrace, but the slander that is being thrown out in this thread is actually splashing back on y'all. You can't go around throwing mud at the brethren, and not be sullied yourself.

Interesting accusation. All I have seen from those of us who don't embrace WOF are quotes from WOF preachers and evangelists.

Well, of course. All out of context, I'm sure... that's what poor comprehension or incomplete knowledge does.

Then your accusation is false and therefore, slanderous.

[Xan]

hr.jr..............................and everything you just said is NOT in the Bible. It is based on a so called new revelation that can only be obtained by super spiritual knowledge that even the early church Fathers did not have.

Where does it say in the Word that Jesus suffered in hell?

Where does it say in the Word that he died spiritually?

Where does it say in the word that he became Born Again?

One thing you have failed to see is that "the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us" The Word is God and it is not possible to become one with sin and the devil. To say so is blasphemy. These are the dreamers of Job. God said "where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth?"

God is God and he is in control and we are his children and not "little gods"

In his love,

Brian

I take it that you are joking, Or Very ignorant of the Bible.

This is an example of how adept you are at insulting people. Why don't you just go ahead and answer the questions. Since you believe this, then I'm sure you want others to be taught in you beliefs. I, for one, like it when people ask me questions about my Biblical beliefs because it gives me a chance to answer and teach. I never ridicule anyone for asking a question, and we are told to always be ready for an answer. We are never told to ridicule people for lack of knowledge. After all, we are known by our fruit.

[stacey c]

RunningGator, will we ever agree on anything? Yes I do believe Paul was a great man of faith. Through all his trials and tribulations he never lost his focus of Christ and preaching the gosple. What a great man of God he was!!!!!

I am sure there are lots we agree on. we are probally not even as far apart on this as it seems

Pauls was a man of great faith, yet God never granted him what he asked for. If God is tied to do our will, why was that?

I don't believe God is tied to our will. I believe He moves in our lives by our faith. I don't believe we'll live with no trials and tribulations, we will always have our faith tried no matter our standard of living. Paul was a model for living by faith. That no matter the fiery darts God will always see us thru, as long as we hold fast our faith.

[ayin jade]

I have never heard a WOF person say,

[1] Jesus death was not enough to save us.

[2]It's OK to put curses on people who disagree with you.

Every WOF person I have heard have all given Bible to back up what they say.

There may be one or two who say wrong things, But that doesnt make the rest of the WOF wrong.

Ok lets start with the first one. Hope these are enough for you.

[1] Jesus death was not enough to save us.

"Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by becoming one in nature with him...He became one with the nature of Satan, so all those who had the nature of Satan can partake of the nature of God."

Benny Hinn (TBN December 15 1990)

"He [Jesus] who is righteous by choice said, 'The only way I can stop sin is by Me becoming it. I can't just stop it by letting it touch Me; I and it must become one.' Hear this! He who is the nature of God became the nature of Satan where He became sin!"

Benny Hinn (TBN, December 1, 1990)

"I do not believe that you must be born again to obtain salvation. I believe there is a distinction"?

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne...Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."

Kenneth Copeland (Jesus -- Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory Magazine 10, 4; April 1982, p. 3)

"Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that."?

Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audio tape #020022)

"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way -- a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible down... like that. I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him." He said, "You are the very image, the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, "Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too."

Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, tape #00-0202, side 2)

"Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only. When He said 'It is finished' on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun; there were still three days and three nights to be gone through."

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

"Then, without warning, there came the sudden thud of a hammer. The nails that pounded into Christ's hands and feet that day 'injected' Him with every blatant iniquity, every subtle sin, every vile act that mankind had ever or would ever commit. Hanging from those nails, Jesus was also deliberately infected with all manner of sickness and sin, so to bring about salvation and healing, through His divine, immunized blood."

Rod Parsley (The Backside Of Calvary, Results Publishing, Columbus, OH, 1991, p. 46)

"And you've got to really glean some things out of the Word of God to really get hold of what He [Jesus] did for you during those three days. Jesus said, 'It is finished.' And He meant the Old Covenant. The job He had to do was just getting started. He really did the job the three days and nights that He was in hell. That's where the job was done."

Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne? audio)

"There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell"

Joyce Meyer ("The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make", 1991 pg. 3)

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God -- Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980)

"Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us."

"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God."?

Kenneth Hagin, Sr. ("How Jesus obtained His Name" audio tape #44-H01)

Kenneth Hagin, Sr. (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)

[2]It's OK to put curses on people who disagree with you.

"Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family. Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens."

Benny Hinn (TBN September 10, 1999)

"I want to use Holy Ghost machine gun to kill Heresy Hunters."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-thon TBN, November 8, 1990 )

[Floatingaxe]

"I want to use Holy Ghost machine gun to kill Heresy Hunters."

Hahaha! That's a good one, eh?

[mrs]

Wait.

There are seriously people in this thread who think God will do nothing in our lives unless a. we have lots of faith, b. we let him, and/or c. we are yielded?

Are you guys serious about believing that? Do you realize how deadly that belief is? No matter how you twist it, if you say God will not do anything unless we do either a,b, or c above, then we are in control and not God.

As shiloh said it is a direct attack on God's sovereignty. God can, will, and DOES do whatever He pleases no matter our attitude or desire. Often the Spirit chooses to work in a gentle and loving way, yet He is never in submission to what we want.

God:

- hardened Pharaoh's heart and made him an example

- took Nebechadenezzar's sanity from him because of his great pride; and taught him humility. In the end Nebuchadenezzar fell to his knees and proclaimed God as the true and living God

- knocked Paul off his horse and told him what he must do and what he would suffer

- said to each disciple, "Come and follow me" and they obeyed. Why? because God had spoken

- commanded, "Lazarus come forth!" and he came, for God had spoken

In the lives of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, John, Paul, Simon Peter what you do not see is humans being great examples of faith and submission to God, who run after Him pleading for Him to wait for them.

What you DO see is God coming to a person and saying you WILL do this, and they do it. Is God a dictator? No, but He IS God and His Word is a command. The amazing thing about it is God promises reward for obedience and He truly loves those He commands.

Far be it from us to ever dare say that He is restrained by our faith and obedience; and indeed that is quite impossible for our obedience itself comes from His hand.

[truthbringer]

RunningGator, will we ever agree on anything? Yes I do believe Paul was a great man of faith. Through all his trials and tribulations he never lost his focus of Christ and preaching the gosple. What a great man of God he was!!!!!

I am sure there are lots we agree on. we are probally not even as far apart on this as it seems

Pauls was a man of great faith, yet God never granted him what he asked for. If God is tied to do our will, why was that?

When didn't God grant what Pauls asked for?