Is faith enough to save us from Hell?

[nebula]

I also need to add that Jesus' death on the cross as "the Lamb of God" is about atonement. That is all the sacrifices ever were about. The Jews understood this.

Why can't Chrisitans?

[Guest shiloh357]

I have to admit, it is very discouraging to see people regarding salvation as "salvation from Hell." That is akin to regarding Jesus as nothing more than "fire insurance."

What a way to cheapen the gospel and Jesus' sacrifice!

Is escaping Hell all you care about?

Salvation is about being reconciled to God.

Once you accept this, all this debate over technicalities becomes pointless.

Amen!!

[ayin jade]

From Dubaimarina:

BLIND are the people who believe that faith can save ALONE! There's no such verse in the bible!

Really??? NO verese in the Bible that says that? Well let's see: Rom 3:20-22, Rom 3:26, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1, Rom 8:3; Joh 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 6:40; Acts 13:38, Acts 13:39; 1Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:11-14, Gal. 3:24; Eph. 2:8,9; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:7

Those passages say you are wrong. I will believe the Bible, not your false, twisted teachings.

The verses are important enough, I thought they should be posted in their entirety. Im with you Shiloh. I reject their false twisted teachings.

Rom 3:20-22

20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;

22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,

Rom 3:26

26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 4:5

5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:1

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

Joh 3:14-18

14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up,

15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

John 5:24

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 13:38

38 Therefore be it known to you, men, brothers, that through this One the forgiveness of sins is announced to you.

Acts 13:39

39 And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

1Cor. 6:11

11 And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal. 2:16

16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

Gal. 3:8

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying , "In you shall all nations be blessed."

Gal. 3:11-14

11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."

12 But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them."

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone having been hanged on a tree");

14 so that the blessing of Abraham might be to the nations in Jesus Christ, and that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal. 3:24

24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Eph. 2:8,9

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Phil. 3:9

9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,

Titus 3:7

7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[antz]

The problem here lies with your assertion that we are claiming that once a person is saved, they do not have to live in obedience.

This is what i am telling you... you just ask yourself and your heart will testify against your beliefs in OSAS... a Christian HAVE TO DO GOOD after the salvation from sins. Have to OBEY... What will you OBEY???

1Ti 6:14 That thou

keep this commandment without spot

, unrebukeable,

until

the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What is involve in the commandments???

Col 1:10 That ye might

walk worthy of the Lord

unto all pleasing,

being fruitful in every

good work

, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

You see that... the problem with you is you read the verses and explain it for yourselves... Just ask and let the Bible answer!!!

That is not the position of anyone on this thread.

Then live with it... your heart said it already... YOU HAVE TO OBEY after you are saved.

We simply reject your assertion that works are necessary for salvation

It is... you said it already... you have to obey after your salvation... HAVE TO... if you don't obey... what will happen... let us allow the Bible to answer... not me.. not you... THE BIBLE...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those

who were once enlightened

and

tasted of the heavenly gift

, and

were made partakers of the Holy Spirit

, 5 and

tasted the good word of God

, and

the powers of the age to come

, 6

and then fell away

,

it is

impossible

to

renew them again

unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You see that... once you are saved and instead of obeying you fell away... you cannot be renewed again... meaning ONCE SAVED IS NOT ALWAYS SAVED!!! That is what the Bible said clearly... I don't know if you will hear it...

Now... what is one way to keep yourself from falling away while waiting for Christ??? again... let the Bible answer...

Same verse i posted above... 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

when the Bible makes it perfectly clear that works play no part in how a person gets saved, or how salvation is kept

If you are referring to Romans 1:1 onwards here... again... I agree THAT THE WORKS HAS NO PART IN SALVATION FROM SINS... but in SALVATION FROM HELL... it is clearly stated in the Bible and even your heart believes it... YOU HVE TO OBEY!!!

We are not holding on to Jesus. It is Jesus who is holding on to us. We are not "keeping ourselves saved." We do not have the ability to bring our own salvation, so it only follows that we do not have the power to sustain it. Jesus is both the Author and Finisher of our faith. Salvation begins and ends with Jesus and Jesus alone. He is the Savior. We are not "co-saviors" with Jesus.

We are not holding on to Jesus while we were not yet saved... but after you are saved from your sins, do we still not hold on to Jesus??? again.. let the Bible nswer...

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you

the gospel

which I preached unto you, which also

ye have received

, and

wherein ye stand

; 2

By which also ye are saved

,

IF

ye keep in memory what I preached unto you

, unless ye have believed in vain.

You see that... which ye are saved IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,

You maybe right is saying we are not a co savior of Christ but don't mock Him... HE CLEANSE YOU AS A GIFT NOT BY YOUR DEEDS... but after He cleanse you, you have to obey and keep yourself clean.

Of course, we believe in "taking up the Cross." But taking up the Cross daily and following Jesus is the duty of Christians, not a pre-requisite for those still trying to get saved.

really... not pre-requisite??? again let us give way to what the Bible say... let us read the verse again...

Luk 9:23 And

he said

to them all,

IF

any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and

take up his cross daily

, and follow me.

you see that... IF any man will come after me... IF you will come after Him, deny yourself, take up your cross

BELIEVE in what JESUS has said, not your own interpretation... IF you believe, then you will have eternal life... as it is written...

John 5:24 Truly, truly I tell you, the one who hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

see that... YOU HAVE TO HEAR HIS WORDS.... and according to HIM... IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

You have to violate hermeneutics (laws of literary analysis) to arrive at positions you do, from the passages you cite.

I have no idea what LAW is that but as long as I am not violating God's Law... who cares...

Let me post this first and continue answering the rest of your post...

Edited August 21, 2006 by antz

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Aug 20 2006, 03:54 AM)

The problem here lies with your assertion that we are claiming that once a person is saved, they do not have to live in obedience.

This is what i am telling you... you just ask yourself and your heart will testify against your beliefs in OSAS... a Christian HAVE TO DO GOOD after the salvation from sins. Have to OBEY... What will you OBEY???

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What is involve in the commandments???

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Yes, but we do not have to obey in order to remain saved. Our obligation is not legalistic. We obey from our hearts. It is our love for God, not fear of hell that motivates us. Your motivation is keep yourself out of hell. Your "obedience" is nothing but "fire insurance." Our obedience is out of love and a desire to glorify God. You are selfish, we are living in obedience unto the Lord we love.

QUOTE

We simply reject your assertion that works are necessary for salvation

It is... you said it already... you have to obey after your salvation... HAVE TO... if you don't obey... what will happen... let us allow the Bible to answer... not me.. not you... THE BIBLE...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You see that... once you are saved and instead of obeying you fell away... you cannot be renewed again... meaning ONCE SAVED IS NOT ALWAYS SAVED!!! That is what the Bible said clearly... I don't know if you will hear it...

This is not a OSAS issue. The issue is whether or not works are required for salvation. You have chosen to pervert and twist the Bible and force your misguided, foolish doctrines upon it.

Hebrews six does not play into this discussion at all.

Now... what is one way to keep yourself from falling away while waiting for Christ??? again... let the Bible answer...

Same verse i posted above... 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Try applying some context here. Those of who actually know how to interpret Scripture can see the obvious error you are falling into with this passage.

The "commandment" was written to Timothy, in particular though it has a wider application to all believers. Paul commanded Timothy to fight the good fight of faith. He was admonishing Timothy because Timothy was a leader in the Body of Christ, and such it was incumbant upon him to have a good and spotless profession. Paul was not admonishing Timothy on how to maintain his salvation, but rather how to live out his life so that he would have a spotless profession in the sight of all men. It is the same with us. We should strive to live our lives such that if men hate us for our good profession, then it is to God's glory. Frankly, you have no grasp whatsoever on how to interpret Scripture.

QUOTE

Of course, we believe in "taking up the Cross." But taking up the Cross daily and following Jesus is the duty of Christians, not a pre-requisite for those still trying to get saved.

really... not pre-requisite??? again let us give way to what the Bible say... let us read the verse again...

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

you see that... IF any man will come after me... IF you will come after Him, deny yourself, take up your cross

All true obedience is an act of faith. It is faith in Christ that inspires obedience. It is faith in Christ that precedes obedience. Obedience is a testimony of faith, not a tool to gain salvation. If you are obeying in an attempt to gain your salvation, you are trusting in your flesh, and your faith is not in Christ, and as such, your obedience is displeasing, antz. Your obedience is not of faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(Hebrews 11:6)

He only rewards obedience that comes from faith. He does not reward the fleshly "obedience" that you offer because it is not an act of faith, nor does it stem from faith. It stems from your flesh. Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

QUOTE

You have to violate hermeneutics (laws of literary analysis) to arrive at positions you do, from the passages you cite.

I have no idea what LAW is that but as long as I am not violating God's Law... who cares...

Yes, you do violate God's Laws. You violate God's laws every day that you attempt to gain salvation according to your works. God's law in the OT clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and this is confirmed by the New Testament. Salvation has NEVER been by works. By trusting in your flesh, you violate the Law of God which reveals that your works are impotent to save you.

[RGR]

[antz]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Aug 20 2006, 03:54 AM)

The problem here lies with your assertion that we are claiming that once a person is saved, they do not have to live in obedience.

This is what i am telling you... you just ask yourself and your heart will testify against your beliefs in OSAS... a Christian HAVE TO DO GOOD after the salvation from sins. Have to OBEY... What will you OBEY???

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What is involve in the commandments???

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Yes, but we do not have to obey in order to remain saved.[ Our obligation is not legalistic. We obey from our hearts. It is our love for God, not fear of hell that motivates us. Your motivation is keep yourself out of hell. Your "obedience" is nothing but "fire insurance."

Our obedience is out of love and a desire to glorify God.

You are selfish, we are living in obedience unto the Lord we love.

what will happen if you totally stop obeying God???

QUOTE

We simply reject your assertion that works are necessary for salvation

It is... you said it already... you have to obey after your salvation... HAVE TO... if you don't obey... what will happen... let us allow the Bible to answer... not me.. not you... THE BIBLE...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You see that... once you are saved and instead of obeying you fell away... you cannot be renewed again... meaning ONCE SAVED IS NOT ALWAYS SAVED!!! That is what the Bible said clearly... I don't know if you will hear it...

This is not a OSAS issue. The issue is whether or not works are required for salvation. You have chosen to pervert and twist the Bible and force your misguided, foolish doctrines upon it.

im not twisting anything here... i am laying down before you what is written as it is... no interpretation... no twisting

Hebrews six does not play into this discussion at all.

Why it has nothing to do with it??? because it will testify against your wrong beliefs???

Now... what is one way to keep yourself from falling away while waiting for Christ??? again... let the Bible answer...

Same verse i posted above... 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Try applying some context here. Those of who actually

know how to interpret Scripture

can see the obvious error you are falling into with this passage.

so it is really you who beleives in interpretation of Scriptures, I don't. The Bible is there as it is... NO NEED TO INTERPRET!!! YOU JUST READ... This is why you are misguided because you believe in interpretations.

The "commandment" was written to Timothy, in particular though it has a wider application to all believers. Paul commanded Timothy to fight the good fight of faith. He was admonishing Timothy because Timothy was a leader in the Body of Christ, and such it was incumbant upon him to have a good and spotless profession. Paul was not admonishing Timothy on how to maintain his salvation, but rather how to live out his life so that he would have a spotless profession in the sight of all men. It is the same with us. We should strive to live our lives such that if men hate us for our good profession, then it is to God's glory.

Why do you have to live a spotless profession??? Why do you have to love God??? Isn't it for salvation???

Frankly, you have no grasp whatsoever on how to interpret Scripture.

i am not interpreting the Scripture. it is what it is from the Bible to my posts.

QUOTE

Of course, we believe in "taking up the Cross." But taking up the Cross daily and following Jesus is the duty of Christians, not a pre-requisite for those still trying to get saved.

really... not pre-requisite??? again let us give way to what the Bible say... let us read the verse again...

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

you see that... IF any man will come after me... IF you will come after Him, deny yourself, take up your cross

All true obedience is an act of faith. It is faith in Christ that inspires obedience. It is faith in Christ that precedes obedience. Obedience is a testimony of faith, not a tool to gain salvation. If you are obeying in an attempt to gain your salvation, you are trusting in your flesh, and your faith is not in Christ, and as such, your obedience is displeasing, antz. Your obedience is not of faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

(Hebrews 11:6)

He only rewards obedience that comes from faith.

Yes, but He only consider faith with works... read...

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

He does not reward the fleshly "obedience" that you offer because it is not an act of faith, nor does it stem from faith. It stems from your flesh.

Yes, the Bible is against fleshly obedience and so do I.

Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

Your judgement is poor and I hope you'll be forgiven.

QUOTE

You have to violate hermeneutics (laws of literary analysis) to arrive at positions you do, from the passages you cite.

I have no idea what LAW is that but as long as I am not violating God's Law... who cares...

Yes, you do violate God's Laws. You violate God's laws every day that you attempt to gain salvation according to your works.

Another unproven claim...

God's law in the OT clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and this is confirmed by the New Testament. Salvation has NEVER been by works.

Yes I agree in the Bible... SALVATION FROM SINS IS NOT BY WORKS

By trusting in your flesh, you violate the Law of God which reveals that your works are impotent to save you.

I don't trust my flesh because it is weak... read...

Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

But there is spirit in me that keeps me doing good work. The love of God is to keep His commandments... and keeping His commandments till Jesus come back... according to Jesus...

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[Floatingaxe]

Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

That is a ridiculous statement. When we choose to obey God, He loves it. It certainly does glorify Him! It draws Him to favour us. He will bless an obedient child over a disobedient one any day. He works within the lives of those He can trust to obey. Those He doesn't trust, He doesn't use!

Lord Jesus, make us trustworthy servants for You!

[antz]

Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

That is a ridiculous statement. When we choose to obey God, He loves it. It certainly does glorify Him! It draws Him to favour us. He will bless an obedient child over a disobedient one any day. He works within the lives of those He can trust to obey. Those He doesn't trust, He doesn't use!

Lord Jesus, make us trustworthy servants for You!

I think this is the first time we agree in one thing....

AMEN...

I told you... if it is the TRUTH i will agree on it regardless of who say it!!!

[Floatingaxe]

Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

That is a ridiculous statement. When we choose to obey God, He loves it. It certainly does glorify Him! It draws Him to favour us. He will bless an obedient child over a disobedient one any day. He works within the lives of those He can trust to obey. Those He doesn't trust, He doesn't use!

Lord Jesus, make us trustworthy servants for You!

I think this is the first time we agree in one thing....

AMEN...

I told you... if it is the TRUTH i will agree on it regardless of who say it!!!

But...but....but...YOU are the one who said that!