Is faith enough to save us from Hell?

[Guest shiloh357]

what will happen if you totally stop obeying God???

A true Christian may have ups and downs, and not every Christian's life is always spent close to the Lord. Our shortcomings do not take God by surprise. He knew when He saved us, that we would mess up in the future. He knew when He saved us that there would be times that we would fall and disappoint Him. He saved us anyway fully knowing this.

God does not throw you away when you screw things up, and make a mess of everything. What happens when we don't obey? What happens when we fall? That question reveals another thing you don't understand: Grace. Grace is not for those who always have it all together. Grace is not for those who never sin. Grace is for the rest of us, who rely on Jesus, and not on our works to save us. Grace is not only available when you are living right, but it is there to pick you up when you do fall. Grace is there to say, "I forgive you; get up and let's try this again." It has been said that offering salvation was a greatest the act of God in the history of the universe. It was a greater demonstration of His power than the creation of the universe. This is so, because in salvation, God gave all He had. Jesus gave EVERYTHING to save you and me. We are rebellious, selfish, demanding, impatient, prideful, full of vanity, bitter, foolish, contemptuous, and yet God still loves us. He never gives up on us. He always is there to give a second chance, a third chance, a 56th chance. Even when we are faithless, the Bible says, He is faithful. He never leaves us nor forsakes us. We have spurned his love, and trampled it with our selfish desire to do our own thing. And once we have screwed everything up and made a horrible mess of our lives, He is there, waiting at the portals, watching like the Father of the prodigal son. Waiting to embrace us in His loving arms. No matter how much we have hurt Him, He is willing to receive us back with open arms. One thing you can be sure of; Jesus will never break your heart.

In your "theology," you mess up and God will cast you off. There is not concept of grace in your teachings. It is all work, and all flesh. You know just enough about the Bible to be dangerous. You certainly don't know God, or His character and operations.

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Aug 21 2006, 06:33 AM)

This is not a OSAS issue. The issue is whether or not works are required for salvation. You have chosen to pervert and twist the Bible and force your misguided, foolish doctrines upon it.

im not twisting anything here... i am laying down before you what is written as it is... no interpretation... no twisting

Which is not intellectually honest. You are interpreting. Rather you are misinterpreting. It is a false and grotesque handling of the Bible, that I am glad to say no one on this board is accepting. Your teachings simply fall flat around here, because we know the truth. Again, you are wasting your time.

QUOTE

Hebrews six does not play into this discussion at all.

Why it has nothing to do with it??? because it will testify against your wrong beliefs???

No, because we are not talking about OSAS doctrine. There is another thread around here for that. You are trying to take off in another direction, and I will not go there.

so it is really you who beleives in interpretation of Scriptures, I don't. The Bible is there as it is... NO NEED TO INTERPRET!!! YOU JUST READ... This is why you are misguided because you believe in interpretations.

Sorry, but like I said, that is not intellectually honest. You are interpreting Scripture in every sense of the Word. You are taking a face-value approach to most of it, that is still a method of interpretation. Every time you read a letter or book or new article, you interpret. It is a natural part of understanding, and you do it everyday almost without realizing it. Every time you read the Bible you are engaging in some method of interpretation, whether you possess the honesty to admit it, is something else.

Any time we are analyzing a piece of literature whether it is a novel, a piece of poetry, a biography or whatever, there are rules of literary analysis that are applied. The Bible is no different. We do not read a parable like proverb, and we do not treat prophecy like historical narrative. Every literary type has rules that govern how it is interpreted, otherwise we end up with twisted, meaningless nonsense like what you are trying peddle here.

QUOTE

The "commandment" was written to Timothy, in particular though it has a wider application to all believers. Paul commanded Timothy to fight the good fight of faith. He was admonishing Timothy because Timothy was a leader in the Body of Christ, and such it was incumbant upon him to have a good and spotless profession. Paul was not admonishing Timothy on how to maintain his salvation, but rather how to live out his life so that he would have a spotless profession in the sight of all men. It is the same with us. We should strive to live our lives such that if men hate us for our good profession, then it is to God's glory.

Why do you have to live a spotless profession??? Why do you have to love God??? Isn't it for salvation???

No, it is for glorifying God. As I stated and you obviously did not read, Paul is admonishing Timothy to fight the good fight of faith and to do so in such a way that he keeps his profession (of salvation) clean. This is a commandment to a saved person. It is not a commandment to an unsaved person on how to get saved. Paul is telling Timothy live his life in such a way that it does remains a spotless testimony before the world of the salvation He already has. He is to be spotless testimony of Christ. It is profession of faith in Christ that must remain pure and spotless and his life should reflect that. So it has nothing to do with how get saved, or how to maintain salvation. Rather it is about living a salvation he already possesses.

QUOTE

He only rewards obedience that comes from faith.

Yes, but He only consider faith with works... read...

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

You are ignoring context, though. James is writing to Christians, and he is admonishing them to live their faith, and demonstrate their faith by their works. He is not telling them that they need works to be saved. That is nowhere found in his letter. His point is that faith is dead without works in the sense that any profession of faith must be accompanied by corresponding action in order to the world to see that our profession is genuine. The works are not for our benefit, but for the Glory of God. James is teaching what Jesus taught. Jesus said that our works should be light that is seen of men that they may glorify our Father in Heaven.

QUOTE

God's law in the OT clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and this is confirmed by the New Testament. Salvation has NEVER been by works.

Yes I agree in the Bible... SALVATION FROM SINS IS NOT BY WORKS

Ah yes, the old sin/hell dichotomy that you present regarding salvation. It shows that you really don't understand salvation at all. Hell is a consequence of sin, not "sins." You go to hell because of what you are, not because of what you do. Hell is the default consequence of not being born again. If you lived a moral life, and never sinned once, you would still go to hell as a sinner, since your heart would still be enmity with God. It is only by being born again that a person can be saved from hell, and that is done by grace through faith alone. (Rom 3:20-22, Rom 3:26, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1, Rom 8:3; Joh 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 6:40; Acts 13:38, Acts 13:39; 1Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:11-14, Gal. 3:24; Eph. 2:8,9; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:7) Once saved from sin you no longer face its consequence, which is hell. When you are born again, you are placed in Christ, and Christ is in you. You are a new Creation in Him and are no longer under the law, but under grace. No one IN Christ is going to hell. It is impossible.

A real Christian can understand these things, but you cannot. You need Jesus, and you need to give up these false perverted teachings that you are spreading on this boards. You need to make Jesus the Lord of your life and stop trying to earn a salvation you cannot earn. As long as you continue down this path of trying to earn your salvation, you will end up dying without Jesus and spend eternity in Hell. It is that simple. Your works are useless, and unfortunately serve as a means of feeding your pride. Your pride puts a wall between you and the Lord and it is costing you your soul.

Your "obedience" is not obedience at all. It is stark disobedience, because you placing your faith in your works to save you from hell, and it simply does not work that way. Unfortunately, you are too prideful to be teachable.

But there is spirit in me that keeps me doing good work. The love of God is to keep His commandments... and keeping His commandments till Jesus come back... according to Jesus...

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Yes, there is a A spirit guiding you; it is not the Holy Spirit, though. This verse was addressed to Jesus' immediate disciples in Matthew ten. It is not addressed to all believers. Try reading up around verse 5. This pertains to a missionary journey among the cities of Israel that Jesus sent them on. He was simply warning them of what they would face, but admonished them to be faithful and they would be delivered. It is not an address to the Church at large. While there are some who see a dual reference to the Tribulation period in this passage, it is not addressing spiritual salvation, but rather preservation in the midst of, and deliverance from, persecution.

[antz]

Your obedience is selfish, and does not glorify God.

That is a ridiculous statement. When we choose to obey God, He loves it. It certainly does glorify Him! It draws Him to favour us. He will bless an obedient child over a disobedient one any day. He works within the lives of those He can trust to obey. Those He doesn't trust, He doesn't use!

Lord Jesus, make us trustworthy servants for You!

I think this is the first time we agree in one thing....

AMEN...

I told you... if it is the TRUTH i will agree on it regardless of who say it!!!

But...but....but...YOU are the one who said that!

WRONG...

you check the thread to find out who post that... i just quoted that one... my reply to that comment is "Your judgement is poor and I hope you'll be forgiven."

as a Christian i would never say such words to people here...

[Guest shiloh357]

WRONG...

you check the thread to find out who post that... i just quoted that one... my reply to that comment is "Your judgement is poor and I hope you'll be forgiven."

as a Christian i would never say such words to people here...

If you are trying to work for your salvation, you are NOT a Christian.

[antz]

what will happen if you totally stop obeying God???

A true Christian may have ups and downs, and not every Christian's life is always spent close to the Lord. Our shortcomings do not take God by surprise. He knew when He saved us, that we would mess up in the future. He knew when He saved us that there would be times that we would fall and disappoint Him. He saved us anyway fully knowing this.

God does not throw you away when you screw things up, and make a mess of everything. What happens when we don't obey? What happens when we fall? That question reveals another thing you don't understand: Grace. Grace is not for those who always have it all together. Grace is not for those who never sin. Grace is for the rest of us, who rely on Jesus, and not on our works to save us. Grace is not only available when you are living right, but it is there to pick you up when you do fall. Grace is there to say, "I forgive you; get up and let's try this again." It has been said that offering salvation was a greatest the act of God in the history of the universe. It was a greater demonstration of His power than the creation of the universe. This is so, because in salvation, God gave all He had. Jesus gave EVERYTHING to save you and me. We are rebellious, selfish, demanding, impatient, prideful, full of vanity, bitter, foolish, contemptuous, and yet God still loves us. He never gives up on us. He always is there to give a second chance, a third chance, a 56th chance. Even when we are faithless, the Bible says, He is faithful. He never leaves us nor forsakes us. We have spurned his love, and trampled it with our selfish desire to do our own thing. And once we have screwed everything up and made a horrible mess of our lives, He is there, waiting at the portals, watching like the Father of the prodigal son. Waiting to embrace us in His loving arms. No matter how much we have hurt Him, He is willing to receive us back with open arms. One thing you can be sure of; Jesus will never break your heart.

In your "theology," you mess up and God will cast you off. There is not concept of grace in your teachings. It is all work, and all flesh. You know just enough about the Bible to be dangerous. You certainly don't know God, or His character and operations.

You are not answering the question. I already know that Christian may have ups and down, that God is so good forgiving us from our sins, that Jesus give its life for us, that we are once rebelious, and that... sorry but i am really not comfortable using my own words so lets just read it...

I Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

You read that??? some of the members of the Church of God were once that bad...NOW... my question is... AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP obeying God, what will happen???

According to the Bible they can not be renew again unto repentance... read...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That is according to the Bible, I don't know how is it according to you but feel free to answer the question.

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Aug 21 2006, 06:33 AM)

This is not a OSAS issue. The issue is whether or not works are required for salvation. You have chosen to pervert and twist the Bible and force your misguided, foolish doctrines upon it.

im not twisting anything here... i am laying down before you what is written as it is... no interpretation... no twisting

Which is not intellectually honest. You are interpreting. Rather you are misinterpreting. It is a false and grotesque handling of the Bible, that I am glad to say no one on this board is accepting. Your teachings simply fall flat around here, because we know the truth. Again, you are wasting your time.

and which verse did I interpret??? and i don't have my own teaching, i am quoting the Bible...

so it is really you who beleives in interpretation of Scriptures, I don't. The Bible is there as it is... NO NEED TO INTERPRET!!! YOU JUST READ... This is why you are misguided because you believe in interpretations.

Sorry, but like I said, that is not intellectually honest. You are interpreting Scripture in every sense of the Word. You are taking a face-value approach to most of it, that is still a method of interpretation. Every time you read a letter or book or new article, you interpret. It is a natural part of understanding, and you do it everyday almost without realizing it. Every time you read the Bible you are engaging in some method of interpretation, whether you possess the honesty to admit it, is something else.

It would be better if you can collect all the verses i interpret and let us discuss it in another topic.

Any time we are analyzing a piece of literature whether it is a novel, a piece of poetry, a biography or whatever, there are rules of literary analysis that are applied. The Bible is no different. We do not read a parable like proverb, and we do not treat prophecy like historical narrative. Every literary type has rules that govern how it is interpreted, otherwise we end up with twisted, meaningless nonsense like what you are trying peddle here.

That is your own. For me THE BIBLE IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT from any other books. The Bible is complete and no need to be interpreted. The Bible has His own interpretation of His word that no one should add nor diminished. YOU JUST READ. ASK AND THE BIBLE WILL ANSWER.

QUOTE

The "commandment" was written to Timothy, in particular though it has a wider application to all believers. Paul commanded Timothy to fight the good fight of faith. He was admonishing Timothy because Timothy was a leader in the Body of Christ, and such it was incumbant upon him to have a good and spotless profession. Paul was not admonishing Timothy on how to maintain his salvation, but rather how to live out his life so that he would have a spotless profession in the sight of all men. It is the same with us. We should strive to live our lives such that if men hate us for our good profession, then it is to God's glory.

Why do you have to live a spotless profession??? Why do you have to love God??? Isn't it for salvation???

No, it is for glorifying God. As I stated and you obviously did not read, Paul is admonishing Timothy to fight the good fight of faith and to do so in such a way that he keeps his profession (of salvation) clean.

I read your post but unfortunately you are not answering the question... so I will ask again... and my question will stand firm...

AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP obeying God, what will happen???

just to fit the same question in different arguments that you just posted i will rephase...

AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP gloriying God, STOP fighting the good fight of faith, STOP striving to live a good profession, what will happen??? are you still saved?

and why there's a need for a saved man to glorify God, to fight the good fight of faith, to strive to live a good profession, you are saved after all... then what it is for??? for your Love to God??? why do you need to love God, you are saved after all??? and after all of any posible reason that you may have why we need to follow the commandments, what happen if we decided to STOP??? are we still saved???

This is a commandment to a saved person. It is not a commandment to an unsaved person on how to get saved.

I know... Paul's letters are addressed to the members of the Church of God who already received the gift of justification and were already SAVED form sins.

Paul is telling Timothy live his life in such a way that it does remains a spotless testimony before the world of the salvation He already has. He is to be spotless testimony of Christ. It is profession of faith in Christ that must remain pure and spotless and his life should reflect that.

See question above...

So it has nothing to do with how get saved, or how to maintain salvation. Rather it is about living a salvation he already possesses.

same question as above just needs to rephrase to fit your comment...

AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP living the salvation you already possesed, what will happen??? are you still saved?

=======QUOTE DOESNT WORK FROM THIS POINT, I USE INDENTION INSTEAD======

QUOTE

He only rewards obedience that comes from faith.

Yes, but He only consider faith with works... read...

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

You are ignoring context, though.

Really??? am I out of context here??? let us read the context...

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?17 Even so faith, IF it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You read that... Paul's letter to James, he explains what kind of faith does a Christian should have... and as he said... CAN FAITH SAVE HIM???... (you can read it from above)

James is writing to Christians, and he is admonishing them to live their faith, and demonstrate their faith by their works. He is not telling them that they need works to be saved. That is nowhere found in his letter. His point is that faith is dead without works in the sense that any profession of

faith must be accompanied by corresponding action

in order to the world to see that our profession is genuine. The works are not for our benefit, but for the Glory of God. James is teaching what Jesus taught. Jesus said that our works should be light that is seen of men that they may glorify our Father in Heaven.

Although from this post it seems that you already agree that faith is not enough to save us from hell by saying that FAITH MUST BE ACCOMPANIED BY CORRESPONDING ACTION...

let me still ask the same question again in based on your arguments here you just posted...

AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP accompanying your faith with action/works what will happen??? are you still saved?

God's law in the OT clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and this is confirmed by the New Testament. Salvation has NEVER been by works.

Yes I agree in the Bible... SALVATION FROM SINS IS NOT BY WORKS

Ah yes, the old sin/hell dichotomy that you present regarding salvation. It shows that you really don't understand salvation at all. Hell is a consequence of sin, not "sins."

Yeah, it is Biblical, Hell/Death is wages of sin... as it is written...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And that is precisely the reason why you should not fell away after you have been cleased, justified, saved... because according to the Bible...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You go to hell because of what you are, not because of what you do. Hell is the default consequence of not being born again.

Cant find these phrases from the verses you have given below... perhaps this is another interpretation of yours...

If you lived a moral life, and never sinned once, you would still go to hell as a sinner, since your heart would still be enmity with God.

What a cruel judgement... tsk.. tsk.. tsk... people who lived a good life outside the Christian life hs been judged by shiloh357... tsk... tsk... tsk...

By the way, that is the sign that you are not one of those being written by Paul because if you are, you should have known that Paul written something like this...

I Corinthians 5:12After all, is it my business to judge outsiders? You are to judge those who are inside, aren't you? 13God will judge outsiders. "Put that wicked man away from you. "

You read that???.... are you God??? why do you judge those outsiders??? or maybe it is the otherway around... You are one of the outsider that is why you don't know what you are doing and you don't know that Paul have written something like that???

It is only by being born again that a person can be saved from hell, and that is done by grace through faith alone. (Rom 3:20-22, Rom 3:26, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1, Rom 8:3; Joh 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 6:40; Acts 13:38, Acts 13:39; 1Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:11-14, Gal. 3:24; Eph. 2:8,9; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:7) Once saved from sin you no longer face its consequence, which is hell. When you are born again, you are placed in Christ, and Christ is in you. You are a new Creation in Him and are no longer under the law, but under grace. No one IN Christ is going to hell. It is impossible.

oooppsss... you missed Rom 5:9 which is a determining factors of the verses you have given... actually it starts in Rom 5:8-10... let us read...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You read that??? When did Jesus died for the Christians Paul is speaking to in this verse??? while we were yet sinners... take note there is no interpretation here... i just ask and let the Bible answers... and the Bible said.... while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

What did jesus death did to the Christians???.. the Bible said... being now justified by his blood,we shall be saved from wrath through him.

you see that??? SHALL BE SAVED!!!! not SAVED!!! it is clearly written.. no interpretations... but purely scriptural... SHALL BE SAVED... from where??? according to the Bible FROM WRATH...which is tantamount to hell...

A real Christian can understand these things, but you cannot. You need Jesus, and you need to give up these false perverted teachings that you are spreading on this boards. You need to make Jesus the Lord of your life and stop trying to earn a salvation you cannot earn. As long as you continue down this path of trying to earn your salvation, you will end up dying without Jesus and spend eternity in Hell. It is that simple.

I understand the verses that you have given, read above my post... I have Jesus and I don't have my teaching because all has been written.. all we need to do is READ... NOT INTERPRET... JUST READ!!! Jesus is the Lord of my life and i am not trying to earn the salvation he had already given... what i am trying to do is to keep His commandments and not to fall away from Him for i know that if I fall way it is imposible to renew me again unto repentance (Heb 6:4-6)

Your works are useless, and unfortunately serve as a means of feeding your pride. Your pride puts a wall between you and the Lord and it is costing you your soul.

That is just your opinion.. i would listen to the Bible than to you... The Bible said faith without works is dead... so, i am keeping my faith alive, by doing good works...

But there is spirit in me that keeps me doing good work. The love of God is to keep His commandments... and keeping His commandments till Jesus come back... according to Jesus...

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Yes, there is a A spirit guiding you; it is not the Holy Spirit, though. This verse was addressed to Jesus' immediate disciples in Matthew ten. It is not addressed to all believers. Try reading up around verse 5. This pertains to a missionary journey among the cities of Israel that Jesus sent them on. He was simply warning them of what they would face, but admonished them to be faithful and they would be delivered. It is not an address to the Church at large. While there are some who see a dual reference to the Tribulation period in this passage, it is not addressing spiritual salvation, but rather preservation in the midst of, and deliverance from, persecution.

If i will follow your reasoning, there will be no scriptural messages for us because all of the scriptures was addressed to those people who are now resting...

Fortunately, that is not the truth because before Jesus go to heaven He said this to the diciples...

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You know, that is the problem if you try to interpret the Bible... you will be misguided... DON'T INTERPRET... READ...

This verse is for you...

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

[antz]

WRONG...

you check the thread to find out who post that... i just quoted that one... my reply to that comment is "Your judgement is poor and I hope you'll be forgiven."

as a Christian i would never say such words to people here...

If you are trying to work for your salvation, you are NOT a Christian.

Hey.. why you are still at me in this post.. it is ronald who said your statement is ridiculous... why not comment on that...

and about your comment just now... read my post...

[Floatingaxe]

It's way tooooooooooooo long! I skip over long posts, antz. Keep 'em short, man!

[Candi770]

Antz,

Have you considered studing the bible in the original greek/hebrew. That is where your answers lie. The truth will set you free.

candi

[Guest shiloh357]

You are not answering the question. I already know that Christian may have ups and down, that God is so good forgiving us from our sins, that Jesus give its life for us, that we are once rebelious, and that... sorry but i am really not comfortable using my own words so lets just read it...

I Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

You read that??? some of the members of the Church of God were once that bad...NOW... my question is... AFTER YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, you decided to TOTALLY STOP obeying God, what will happen???

I have already answered your question. You don't seem to understand that when we fall, we have the grace of God to pick us back up. Grace fits nowhere in your theology. In your teachings, if you sin, you fall and have to be resaved. According to the Bible, we have the grace of God to forgive us when we stumble and fall. This is not an excuse to sin, but rather it is an expression of God's love, that He is able to keep us and preserve us even when we fail and disappoint Him.

According to the Bible they can not be renew again unto repentance... read...

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That is according to the Bible, I don't know how is it according to you but feel free to answer the question.

I dont have time to explain all of it, but Hebrews is a tribulation book written to Tribulation Jews and chapter six pertains to falling away permanently, i.e. taking the mark. It does not apply to Christians in the Church Age. As such, it does not apply to this discussion.

and which verse did I interpret??? and i don't have my own teaching, i am quoting the Bible...

Sorry, that is just not intellectually honest.

QUOTE

Any time we are analyzing a piece of literature whether it is a novel, a piece of poetry, a biography or whatever, there are rules of literary analysis that are applied. The Bible is no different. We do not read a parable like proverb, and we do not treat prophecy like historical narrative. Every literary type has rules that govern how it is interpreted, otherwise we end up with twisted, meaningless nonsense like what you are trying peddle here.

That is your own. For me THE BIBLE IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT from any other books. The Bible is complete and no need to be interpreted. The Bible has His own interpretation of His word that no one should add nor diminished. YOU JUST READ. ASK AND THE BIBLE WILL ANSWER.

Again, you really don't understand. You interpret EVERYTHING, even without realizing it. There are right and wrong interpretation methods. Everybody interprets what they read, it doesn't matter what it is. It would take a complete course in hermeneutics for you to see it.

Really??? am I out of context here??? let us read the context...

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?17 Even so faith, IF it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You read that... Paul's letter to James, he explains what kind of faith does a Christian should have... and as he said... CAN FAITH SAVE HIM???... (you can read it from above)

First of all it was not Paul's letter to James it was James letter to believers. You cannot even get the author right. Why should we expect you to the rest of it right?

In v. 14 James asks a rhetorical question... "can such faith save him?" James point is that faith with works is not faith, but rather mental assent. It is not faith at all. Anyone can mouth the right words. James is challenging believers to be hearers of the Word and not doers only. He is challenging all of us to live out faith, and not just give lip service. We are to live out our profession of faith in Christ. In that way, our profession is justified in the sight of men. James's point to us is, don't just just tell others "be blessed." Rather, be a blessing. Don't just pray, but seek to be an answer to someone's prayer. James is not saying that works save us, he is saying that true saving faith is demonstrated by what we do, more than by what we say.

Cant find these phrases from the verses you have given below... perhaps this is another interpretation of yours...

If you lived a moral life, and never sinned once, you would still go to hell as a sinner, since your heart would still be enmity with God.

What a cruel judgement... tsk.. tsk.. tsk... people who lived a good life outside the Christian life hs been judged by shiloh357... tsk... tsk... tsk...

No, they have been judged by God, already. Everyone trying to be saved by their works are under the curse of the law, and when they die, they will stand before God under the law. I would not want to have to be measured against God's law without the blood of Jesus. Those who put faith in Christ, will stand before God, under grace when they die.

oooppsss... you missed Rom 5:9 which is a determining factors of the verses you have given... actually it starts in Rom 5:8-10... let us read...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You read that??? When did Jesus died for the Christians Paul is speaking to in this verse??? while we were yet sinners... take note there is no interpretation here... i just ask and let the Bible answers... and the Bible said.... while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

What did jesus death did to the Christians???.. the Bible said... being now justified by his blood,we shall be saved from wrath through him.

you see that??? SHALL BE SAVED!!!! not SAVED!!! it is clearly written.. no interpretations... but purely scriptural... SHALL BE SAVED... from where??? according to the Bible FROM WRATH...which is tantamount to hell...

I am sorry but it is clear that your English is not very good, and that is part of your problem in trying to tell me what the Bible says.

Look at v. 9 "Much more then being NOW justified by His Blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Our salvation from hell is connected with the being justified NOW. The grammatical structure of the sentence tells us that we can know today that because we are justified NOW by the blood of Jesus. It is not something we are striving for, it is something we are NOW assured of.

Furthermore, v. 10 tells us that the same blood that justifies NOW, is the same blood shed at the death of Jesus which reconciles us to God. We are justified by his blood and reconciled to God by His death at the same time. Our salvation from from sin, deliverance from Hell, and reconciliation with God were accomplished all at once on the cross. All we have to do is appropriate them by faith.

[billie]

Good post, Shiloh...

[Guest shiloh357]

I have NOT seen from any of the verses you posted that FAITH ALONE CAN SAVE FROM HELL....!!!

Moreover, you have misunderstood my post on SOZO, you made your own definition.

No i used the defition you gave which included the word deliver which accoomplishes two things at once. I am sorry but your username gives the feeling that English is not your native tongue, and as such you do not understand the meanings of certain English words.

The verses I posted teach that savlation is by grace through faith. There is only one salvation as I posted to Antz. You cannot divide salvation from sin and salvation from hell into two different experiences. One cannot be saved from sin and still go to hell. It is imipossible, especially from the defitinition of sozo you provided.