Why Christians believe Jesus Christ in more than a Carpenter!

[mohammad99]

hi Mrr Wayne!

I repeat once more : I want ONE phrase from my master Christ in which he says clearly " I am G*d" or " Worship me" or " I am your Creator ". I am 100% sure you will not find such a phrase in you book. what you do most of the time is to interpret wrongly the alleged words of Christ to fit your claims.

you wrote:

He did Abdullah. Why do you think the public tried to stone Him when he said, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" [re: John 8:58] He was either God OR He was committing blasphemy!

The alleged words of Christ means that before prophet Abraham was born , Christ was known / planned/ willed by G*d. If you say : " the verb is present ( I am ) and this proves christ is Eternal ", I answer : the attributes of Allah ( knowlege / will / capability etc) do not have a beginning or end. Example : if Allah gives Mr Wayne a son or a grandson this year, we say that Allah has already known and willed the birth of this son before this son came into being/ existence. And in this case we may rightly say: " Before Wayne b. was born, his grandson is (in G*d's knowllege/ will ).

One must not imagine that G*d's attributes change or they have a beginning or end. A person knows something he didn't know already.He will know something that he doesn't know now. Man can forget a thing that he knows now . etc . This proves that the attributes in man are changing whereas G*d's attributes are the same in the past , present and future.

Your Book proves what I say :

Jeremiah 1:4-10 ((( 4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." ))).

Remember too that whom you claim to be your G*d , christ, had a beginning : he was a foetus, then a baby then an adolescent then a young man. He always refers to the chaste Mary as 'mother'.

Then Christ in your Book always stresses :

1 **** He IS SENT BY his G*d : In John 7:16 we read: ((So Jesus answered them and said,"My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. ))

In John 12:49 we have: (("For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. ")) Note: hey! pay not attetion to capital letters !! Christians use them often to whenever it suits their whims! http://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_thumbsup.gif' alt=':thumbsup:'> In John 5:30 we read: (( I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ))

2*** He worships his G*d : In Matthew 26:39 we read :"And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, Not As I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL.' "

3*** He shows his servitude and humlility to his Creator, Allah: In John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I."

In John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do NOTHING.....I seek not my own will but the will of Him who sent me."

In (John 13:16) we read: "..... the one who is sent is not greater than the one who sent"

In Matthew 19:16-17: 16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

4*** Jesus did miracles with help from his G*d, Allah: In Jhn 17:6 - 10 we raed: (( 6 I have revealed Your name to the men You gave Me from the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they know that all things You have given to Me are from You..... They have believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray ....for those You have given Me, because they are Yours. 10 All My things are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been glorified in them. ))

5*** Christ does not know but his G*d does: in Matthew 24:36 we read: ((36 "Now concerning that day and hour no one knows -- neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son -- except the Father only.))

6*** Jesus has man's weaknesses but the REAL G*d doesn't: Christ suffered hunger, anger, fear,etc.

 


Conclusion: My master and guide Christ never said he was G*d, Allah. He always stressed his servitude to his Creator --- the One, Unique , Almighty allah

(to be continued)

salamon ala mani ttaba'a lhuda !

bye!

Edited September 28, 2006 by mohammad99

[WayneB]

The alleged words of Christ means that before prophet Abraham was born , Christ was known / planned/ willed by G*d.

Abdullah, my friend, if this is all that Jesus spoke of, why did the people pick up stones to kill Him?

Abdullah, after you answer the above question, I have some more questions for you my friend...

1. You said that the prophets did not speak to the divinity of Jesus Christ. Then who was the prophet Isaiah speaking of when he wrote:

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, (A)a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." [isaiah 7:14]

---and---

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." [isaiah 9:6]

2. You said that Jesus never claimed to be God. Then what did He mean when He said that He and the Father are one? You cannot really claim that He meant He was one with the Father's purpose because then you have to explain...why did the Jews pick up stones AGAIN to kill Him? [John 10:30,31]

3. Jesus quoted Scripture to Satan, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" [re: Matthew 4:10] He made this clear! So then why did Jesus allow His followers to worship Him? [re: Matthew 28:17]

4. Was Jesus less than a man because He choose to serve man? Of coarse not! Then why do you think He was less than the Father because He submitted to the Father's will while He walked among us?

Paul explained better than I can when he wrote:

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [Phillipians 2:5-11]

Abdullah, would this be so if Jesus was not God?

Yes, God chose to empty Himself and take the likeness of man and why? Reread the devotional I reposted written by Bill Bright and you will find a much better explanation that I could put into words.

One last question: You refer to Jesus as your Master. Who is greater in your eyes? Mohammad or Jesus?

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

Edited September 23, 2006 by Wayne B.

[WayneB]

INSIGHTS from Bill Bright

Reflections from the late Founder and President/Chairman Emeritus of

Campus Crusade for Christ International

The Hindu and the Ant Hill

Dear friends:

God lovingly works in many mysterious ways to communicate His great message of love and forgiveness to people of all nations, tribes, languages and cultures, and in ways they can best understand.

There was a man from India who was a devout member of a Hindu sect and who had a profound sense of reverence for life. He would not kill an ant, a cow, or even a cobra, because to him, due to his belief in reincarnation, he might be killing some past relative.

During his visit to America, he had been confronted with the claims of Christ, yet he could not grasp the biblical truth that God actually visited this planet in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. He could not comprehend how the Great Creator God of the Universe could become a man, or why.

One day as he was walking in the field meditating upon this new truth about Jesus the Christ being God, he was wondering how this could possibly be. He ran across a large anthill with thousands of little ants scurrying around in their busy like manner. He was standing there observing with wonder the activity of these ants, and what amazing creatures they are, when suddenly, he heard a tremendous and threatening noise. It was the noise of a large tractor plowing the fields.

As he looked up he discovered that the tractor would soon be plowing through that anthill and thousands of ants would probably be killed and their home destroyed. Gripped with the same concern you and I would feel for hundreds of people trapped in a burning building, he became frantic. He wanted to warn them of their impending destruction.

He thought to himself, "How can I warn them? If I could write in the sand, they wouldn't be able to read it. If I shouted to them, they wouldn't understand me. The only possible way I could communicate with them would be by becoming an ant, if I had that ability."

Then suddenly he had a revelation from the Spirit of God. He saw why God, the Creator of the universe, chose to become one of us by becoming a man, in the Person of the God-man, Jesus of Nazareth.

Through his experience with the anthill, the light suddenly came on in the heart of that Hindu man, and now he understood the words of Paul: "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form." (Philippians 2:6-7, NLT).

Yours for fulfilling the Great Commission each year until our Lord returns,

Bill Bright

[mohammad99]

Greetings !!

My friend Wayne wrote:

Abdullah, my friend, if this is all that Jesus spoke of, why did the people pick up stones to kill Him?

Abdullah, after you answer the above question, I have some more questions for you my friend...

1. You said that the prophets did not speak to the divinity of Jesus Christ. Then who was the prophet Isaiah speaking of when he wrote:

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, (A)a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." [isaiah 7:14]

---and---

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." [isaiah 9:6]

2. You said that Jesus never claimed to be God. Then what did He mean when He said that He and the Father are one? You cannot really claim that He meant He was one with the Father's purpose because then you have to explain...why did the Jews pick up stones AGAIN to kill Him? [John 10:30,31]

3. Jesus quoted Scripture to Satan, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" [re: Matthew 4:10] He made this clear! So then why did Jesus allow His followers to worship Him? [re: Matthew 28:17]

4. Was Jesus less than a man because He choose to serve man? Of course not! Then why do you think He was less than the Father because He submitted to the Father's will while He walked among us?

Paul explained better than I can when he wrote:

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [Phillipians 2:5-11]

Abdullah, would this be so if Jesus was not God?....

One last question: You refer to Jesus as your Master. Who is greater in your eyes? Mohammad or Jesus?

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

Hi !!

Those hard-hearted Jews wanted to stone him because they accused him of basphemy : they say he gave himself the position of Divinity / G*d / Allah. But those Jews either don't understand his words or they understood but they twisted the meaning of his words to suit their satanic scheme --- to kill him or at least smear his name.

As I wrote above " Before Abraham was born; I am " is a METAPHORICAL phrase . It means "Before abraham was Born , I was / am ( in G*d 's Will / plan /Knowledge". and to coroborate my idea let us look at a similar situation where those stubborn Jews wanted to stone him. In ( John 10:22-38 ) we see a group of Jews surrounding master Jesus nagging him :

(( "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, ...... 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, `I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came...... 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." ))

We learn from these verses that master Jesus rejects his being accused of blasphemy. He explains to those stubborn Jews that they the phrase ( The Father and I are one) must not be taken literally but METAPHORICALLY. This phrase is metaphorical as the verse in ( Psalms 82:6 = " I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. "). In other words, he tells them that the word ( god ) has different meanings. It can mean a divinity or a saint/ holy person. For the exact meanings of ( god ) see:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=god&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

Likewise,the expression ( son of G*d) in the OT and NT (especially in Christ's speeches) does NOT mean someone begotten by Almighty. It means (a saint/ a servant of Allah / G*d).

Now to your five questions !!

1*** Your claim that (Immanuel) means "G*d with us " and this shows the Divinity of Christ is weak for four reasons:

(a) --- Christ was never named ( Immanuel ).

(b)--- The word translated as "virgin" is the wrong translation of the Hebrew word ALMAH. The word ALMAH in Hebrew means "young woman." The correct Hebrew word for virgin is BETHULAH. Since many young women begot children since those words were penned, it is not at all necessary that those words should apply to Jesus.

Edited September 28, 2006 by mohammad99

[Floatingaxe]

First things first, mohammed...God is NOT Allah! Allah is fictitious and an idol. Not alive, never was, just a figment of someone's imagination--a moon god.

God is the Living and Most High God, also known as Love, which Allah is not known as. So, you do not come from a place of knowing any of this. Jesus indeed did say "I Am!" meaning that He is also the Great I Am. That is why they were so up in arms against Him, claiming to be God--He was and is God.

PS: I do have a pet theory that this Allah could actually be Satan himself, not putting it past him to try to usurp God Almighty. He is adept at creating counterfeits to God and Christ. Nothing new here. Allah is the antithesis of all that God is, which is par for the course, of course!

[WayneB]

Those hard-hearted Jews wanted to stone him because they accused him of basphemy : they say he gave himself the position of Divinity / G*d / Allah. But those Jews either don't understand his words or they understood but they twisted the meaning of his words to suit their satanic scheme --- to kill him or at least smear his name.

So your premise is that the Jews simply misunderstood Him? They tried to stone Him and ultimately nailed Him to a sinner's cross because they simply misunderstood Him? Why didn't He just make it clear that He was not God the Creator if He was not? Rather than make statements like, "Before Abraham, I am (not was)" and "I and the Father are one", why didn't He just make it clear that He was not the Christ? You, 2000 years later and from a different culture, think you know better than the Jew who was there and heard the words of Christ? Once again I ask: why did they want to kill Jesus? Why was He considered a threat to their

[aftwine]

Do Muslims, Mormons, JW's and other cults when they find a handful of verses and misinterpret them think there special all of a sudden?

some 500-600 years after Jesus dies on the cross Mohammed recieves some revaltion from Gabriel, then picks a few obscure verses and adds them to his holy book and now it's the true religion

1800 years after Jesus dies on the cross some midwestern farmboy decides he saw an angel who told him to find gold tablets with a new revaltion of Jesus that totally contradicts everything God is

there's a trend here

Revelations 22 18-19:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

like they found some new truth

Edited September 26, 2006 by aftwine

[aftwine]

"Islam is very strict in preventing us from the pitfalls in which Jews and 'Christians have fallen "

oh yeah like all those Christian and Jewish suicide bombers, crazy extremists!

religion of peace

[mohammad99]

Greetings !!

I continue answering my friend Wayne B.'s questions ( post 22).

Two remaing questions: 4 and 5.He worte:

4. Was Jesus less than a man because He choose to serve man? Of course not! Then why do you think He was less than the Father because He submitted to the Father's will while He walked among us?

Paul explained better than I can when he wrote:

".......... He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [Phillipians 2:5-11]

Abdullah, would this be so if Jesus was not God?..............

One last question: (5) You refer to Jesus as your Master. Who is greater in your eyes? Mohammad or Jesus?

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

Answers :

4-- Master Jesus was/ is more than any of us. But he was very far LESS than his Almighty Creator !! And this is not my own idea.It Christ's idea, too. In speech and action, Christ stressed his obedience, inferiority, servitude to his Creator:

** Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord OUR God is one Lord."

** John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is GREATER THAN I "

**John 8:28 Jesus said "I do NOTHING of myself"

**Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON , but ONLY the Father."

**Even in the OT, the fortold prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:Isaiah 11: 2 " The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the FEAR of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD) etc...

Despite all this, Trinitarians go on saying: " no ! Christ was / is our G*d. He is our Creator. He came on earth in the form of a human to let himself be killed to save us from Adam's fault" . But does he say in YOUR BOOK he is G*d incarnate? The answer is no !!

Master Christ repeated he came to support the Commandments. But today his supposed followers, the Trinitarians, violate the top two Commandments.

1st Commandment; Verse 3: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." But 'Christians' believe there are THREE equal Divine Beings who are one!! Each has an identity and a function. Strangely enough, not one prophet before ( and after

) Jesus has he even hinted to this strange doctrine.

2nd Commandment; Verses 4-6: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or at is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them...". But the Trinitarians have attributed to G*d an image of a young semitic man. Besides, the Trinitarians claim that about 2006 years ago, some people saw , touched , heard and smelled an image of Almighty Allah / G*d !!! Some Trinitrians ( Catholics during Communion) even claim they eat morsels of bread and drink sips of wine to commemorate a famous verse in the NT-

Joh 6:53 - which says " "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" . Exalted be Almighty and his prophet from that!!

**** Paul's statement has no basis because Christ didn't say or hint he was taking the shape of the Everlasting! Paul came with many strange things that are contadictory to Christ's message. And this is another story !! Muslims this Jew -- the self-claimed disciple -- has curr****d Christianity.

'Christians' are doing a big injustice to Christ is by saying that his paryers and cries and human activities are just a 'mask' of G*d Almighty. Believe me , Christ was not an actor . He meant what he was doing and saying !!! May Allah reward me with meeting him in Paradise. Aameen !!

4--- Answer: As a muslim, I believe Jesus is my master. I would be honored to be a carrier of his sandals (if ever he had them !) so as to be one of his company !! And my attitude is coming from Prophet Mohammad who taught us to respect and follow Christ's wisdom. But I should say: although Jesus and Mohammad are brotheres in faith, I believe that Mohammad is greater than Jesus. Why so ?

Because Almighty has concluded His messages to humans by sending the Last Muslim messenger. In order that Truth should remain unspoiled till the LAST Day , the Last Messenger should possess qualities that are better those of his predecessors.In other words, the Last Messenger should be the ' cream ' of Almighty' Messengers, the ' leader ' of the Muslim ' constellation ' to conclude Almighty's Messages.

VERY IMPORTANT: In Islam it is more polite to say " Prophet Mohammad is the greatest of all prophets" than to say " Mohammad is greater than Moses / Jesus / Solomon / Lot ....." : we consider Prophet Mohammad's greatness in relation to all prophets and not in relation to a particular prophet. Mohammad (may Allah glorifies his name) liked to show modesty when he talked about a prophet while knowing / saying he is the best.

CAUTION: Many 'christians' will find my words hurting but this is the stark reality (at least for us muslims). And we will be different on this matter this until our Creator gives His Judgement.

Bye brothers in humanity

!! I really enjoy ' working ' with you !

[WayneB]

Bye brothers in humanity !! I really enjoy ' working ' with you !

Goodbye Abdullah. I enjoyed our exchange as well my friend and I hope the best for you. I hope that you consider our exchange in this thread and through emails, my questions and your answers, on a deeper level and with an open mind and heart.

Saints, Abdullah's last post and previous posts demonstrate what happens when a person is unwilling to study the Word of God in CONTEXT to the whole. Abdullah, like so many others, relies on his own understanding of the Bible taken out of context and refuses to consider anything but his own imaginings. He isn't unique. Many of our own brethren do the exact same thing and hence... we suffer with "religion". Abdullah is fitting God into his culture rather than accepting God's Word through the culture, language and traditions of HIS chosen. A good thread started on the subject is "Studying the Bible, It isn't just opening and reading"

I close with Paul's words regarding Jesus...

".......... He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [Phillipians 2:5-11]

Amen!