Where can I find early Christian history?

[Pax]

Choices choices aren't choices good?

What about Gospel, we would not have Gospel music, what about the Pentecostal movement, we would have missed that, what about Jimmy Swaggart, what kind of a world would it be if I ONLY had Father Groeshell to watch on EWTN.

A unified Christian world.

[pointer]

Please restate your question clearly so that I can understand what you are trying to say

Just see #157. And Matthew is not John.

Not forgetting #148.

[Smalcald]

Choices choices aren't choices good?

What about Gospel, we would not have Gospel music, what about the Pentecostal movement, we would have missed that, what about Jimmy Swaggart, what kind of a world would it be if I ONLY had Father Groeshell to watch on EWTN.

A unified Christian world.

[Pax]

Please restate your question clearly so that I can understand what you are trying to say

Just see #157. And Matthew is not John.

O.k. Pointer you are not making yourself clear. Post #157 says....why didn't my earlier post get a reply. I also don't have a clue what you mean by Mathew is not John.

If you are asking me why Mathew doesn't come out and say Peter is now the Vicar of Christ on earth? I would answer this question by saying, why doesn't the Bible just come out and say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the Trinity. It never does say this but you I'm sure believe in the Trinity. But what Jesus does say to Peter is quite clear.

[pointer]

Please restate your question clearly so that I can understand what you are trying to say

Just see #157. And Matthew is not John.

O.k. Pointer you are not making yourself clear. Post #157 says....why didn't my earlier post get a reply.

So answer it, dear fellow. Why does #148 still not have a reply? Not too difficult for the Vicar of Christ, surely?

And #157 contains two other questions that you cannot miss, surely. The Roman claim in question is in John, not Matthew. That's the one about sheep, ok?

Now let's see if the Holy Church can come up with an answer or two. Sometime.

[Pax]

Christ established His Church one year before His death. (Mathew 16:18-19).

So there were the Christ, and the Vicar of Christ, at the same time?

[Pax]

Christ is telling Peter he will be the head of the Church in Mathew 16, this is obvious. In John 21: 15-19, Christ has returned from the resurrection and tells Peter "Feed my lambs, Feed my sheep."

That isn't "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth." Now that would be obvious.

It is very obvious.

Why is it obvious?

Look at how the verse is worded.

Ok. Now what?

It can't be stated any clearer than it is

So do you really mean to say that "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth" is no clearer than "Feed my sheep"?

Why did my earlier post get no reply?

Feed my lambs, tend my sheep are metaphors for governing and teaching. The sheep would indicate the whole Church. I would be interested to hear what this means to you. Pointer this is also where it would be good for you to read what the early Church fathers had to say about this passage. St. Augustine, John Chrysostom, Pope Leo, and Pope Agatho, all refered to this area of scripture to show the Primacy of Peter.

What I find interesting Pointer, is that I can go to any Protestant Church and listen to a Pastor read out of the Bible. He then will go on to tell us what that passage means and everyone in the Church will take his word and not question it. I have sited passages in the Bible and am telling you what the Church has taught for 2,000 years. Even though we have scripture, early Church Fathers writings, and the magesterium telling us what this means you aren't going to believe it. You on the other hand are going to walk into a Christian Church, listen to a Pastor read out of the Bible and then tell you what that means and you won't question a thing. If you want to interpret scripture that way, that's your choice. I on the other hand would rather read scripture, read the commentary of what the early Church fathers who lived during that time had to say about that scripture , and seek the magesterium of the Church for guidance.

[pointer]

It can't be stated any clearer than it is

So do you really mean to say that "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth" is no clearer than "Feed my sheep"?

Why did my earlier post get no reply?

Feed my lambs, tend my sheep are metaphors for governing and teaching. The sheep would indicate the whole Church. I would be interested to hear what this means to you.

It means the same thing to me, except that the whole church would be indicated by 'all my sheep'. However, what does this have to do with Peter in particular? Do you really mean to say that "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth" is no clearer than "Feed my sheep"?

Can you prove that I should not govern and teach you? I don't think that you can.

Pointer this is also where it would be good for you to read what the early Church fathers

Please do not blaspheme. All of these men will be raised to go to the depths of hell, imv, so cite authority that I can respect.

What I find interesting Pointer, is that I can go to any Protestant Church and listen to a Pastor read out of the Bible.

No, you can't. You can hear a pastor (or anyone at all) read from the Bible. Do learn to write English properly and without suspicion of dishonesty (and indeed absurdity).

He then will go on to tell us what that passage means and everyone in the Church will take his word and not question it.

On the contrary, prophets are subject to the control of prophets. Real churches of any size have several pastors, and there must be agreement between them, and indeed with the whole congregation, about what Scripture means. It is quite true that the great majority of Protestant denominations retain the pagan practice of the Roman emperors in having a single place-man rule a congregation, as you have noted, but this is designed to block the influence of the Holy Spirit, just as it is in the RCC. Independents and house churches are increasingly obeying Paul in having collegiate leadership, or several shepherds to feed the flock. The Reformation still has some way to go.

[w00tatChrist]

the da vinci code has some good early christian history info

[Pax]

It can't be stated any clearer than it is

So do you really mean to say that "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth" is no clearer than "Feed my sheep"?

Why did my earlier post get no reply?

Feed my lambs, tend my sheep are metaphors for governing and teaching. The sheep would indicate the whole Church. I would be interested to hear what this means to you.

It means the same thing to me, except that the whole church would be indicated by 'all my sheep'. However, what does this have to do with Peter in particular? Do you really mean to say that "Peter, you are the greatest of the disciples, so I am leaving the church in your care as my vicar on earth" is no clearer than "Feed my sheep"?

Can you prove that I should not govern and teach you? I don't think that you can.

Pointer this is also where it would be good for you to read what the early Church fathers

Please do not blaspheme. All of these men will be raised to go to the depths of hell, imv, so cite authority that I can respect.

What I find interesting Pointer, is that I can go to any Protestant Church and listen to a Pastor read out of the Bible.

No, you can't. You can hear a pastor (or anyone at all) read from the Bible. Do learn to write English properly and without suspicion of dishonesty (and indeed absurdity).

He then will go on to tell us what that passage means and everyone in the Church will take his word and not question it.

On the contrary, prophets are subject to the control of prophets. Real churches of any size have several pastors, and there must be agreement between them, and indeed with the whole congregation, about what Scripture means. It is quite true that the great majority of Protestant denominations retain the pagan practice of the Roman emperors in having a single place-man rule a congregation, as you have noted, but this is designed to block the influence of the Holy Spirit, just as it is in the RCC. Independents and house churches are increasingly obeying Paul in having collegiate leadership, or several shepherds to feed the flock. The Reformation still has some way to go.

Pointer there is no use agrueing this matter anymore. You have one take on scripture and I have another. I do think it is sad that you accuse me of blasphemy, and then will go on to say that certain people are going to hell. This is a huge sin pointer to judge others, and by this statement you are now saying that you are God.