Where can I find early Christian history?

[pointer]

So far, ignatius has said nothing that opposes my views and beliefs concerning the scriptures whatsoever.

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

what is there that any man has said from the pulpit that we think is of value but not in scripture?

how about do not use contraception?

I agree with that and it isn't explicitly in scripture, it is a life giving teaching that agrees with God who is life himself and opposes anything that stops or hinders life.

there are many things not in scripture that are life giving and profitable.

That doesn't mean that scripture isn't necessary, it just means that I believe things are taught by God outside of scripture that agree with it but are not explicitly within it.

Why don't you have done with it and just admit that you are a Catholic?

[Pax]

So far, ignatius has said nothing that opposes my views and beliefs concerning the scriptures whatsoever.

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

Pointer I am going to post a couple verses in scripture that might help you out with the question you just asked godgivesall4us.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." This is a clear example that both tradition and scripture have value. The early Church fathers talk about certain traditions within the Church. We can see this in their epistles.

John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but it these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." Another clear example that oral tradition plays a part in the Church. So when an apostle saw something that Jesus did, and then told these to St. Ignatius, he most certainly infused such oral traditions into his epistles. These writings have merit within the Church.

[Smalcald]

I think that for Protestants an understanding of early Church History will actually show why Luther did what he had to do, it will strengthen your faith and commitment to the ideals we hold.

Of course I know Pax would disagree! But regardless why deny that history? Are we that afraid as Protestants of what Luther did of understanding it?

I think we have an obligation to understand our own history, if we do not we could end up barking like dogs or praying for money on TBN.

[Pax]

I think that for Protestants an understanding of early Church History will actually show why Luther did what he had to do, it will strengthen your faith and commitment to the ideals we hold.

Of course I know Pax would disagree! But regardless why deny that history? Are we that afraid as Protestants of what Luther did of understanding it?

I think we have an obligation to understand our own history, if we do not we could end up barking like dogs or praying for money on TBN.

Please expand on this smalcald. What would we learn from reading the early fathers epistles that would make us think that such a radical change was needed to reform the Church. You must admit Smalcald, Luthers teachings were a radical change from the first 1500 years of Christianity.

[pointer]

So far, ignatius has said nothing that opposes my views and beliefs concerning the scriptures whatsoever.

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

So when an apostle saw something that Jesus did, and then told these to St. Ignatius

You mean Ignatius. Remember you are not in your organisation here.

We don't know that Ignatius existed. We don't know that, if he did, he knew any apostle. We don't know that, if he did, he was not like Diotrephes.

So Pax, you may be promoting one of what John called 'many antiChrists'.

But what is it that you think an apostle passed on to Ignatius? Not a ban on contraception, surely. Does anyone here know?

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

[Pax]

So far, ignatius has said nothing that opposes my views and beliefs concerning the scriptures whatsoever.

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

So when an apostle saw something that Jesus did, and then told these to St. Ignatius

You mean Ignatius. Remember you are not in your organisation here.

We don't know that Ignatius existed. We don't know that, if he did, he knew any apostle. We don't know that, if he did, he was not like Diotrephes.

So Pax, you may be promoting one of what John called 'many antiChrists'.

But what is it that you think an apostle passed on to Ignatius? Not a ban on contraception, surely. Does anyone here know?

What is there in his letters that you think is of value but not in Scripture?

The Epistle to the Philadelphians:

Part 8. "Certain people declared in my hearing, 'Unless I can find a thing in our ancient records, I refuse to believe it in the Gospel'; and when I assured them that it is indeed in the ancient scriptures, they reported, 'That has got to be proved.' But for my part, my records are Jesus Christ; for me, the sacrosanct records are His cross and death and resurrection, and the faith that comes through Him. And it is by these, and by the help of our prayers, that I am hoping to be justified."

The Epistle to the Smyrnaeans:

Part 8. "Abjure all factions, for they are the beginings of evil. Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too, as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command from God. Make sure that no step affecting the church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop's sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, we have the catholic church."

Pointer I could go on and on but won't. The first example is a good one for you to look at. People are questioning Ignatius and doubting him, kind of like you. How does he respond to this. In the second part we see Ignatius using the world catholic for the first time to describe the universal Chrisitian Church. He also uses the word Eucharist. These are of great value to show what the early church was like.

I also want to add Pointer when you doubt whether or not Ignatius even existed is a similar mind set to the Atheist who doubts whether or not the apostles who wrote the Gospels ever existed. Ignatius lived during the same time, yet you have no problem believing in the apostles. And no I am not promoting the AntiChrist, only trying to promote Jesus Christ....kind of like Ignatius did.

[Smalcald]

We have a definition of what an anti-Christ is and what they will say from scitpure, no need for conjecture.

[Pax]

Unfortunantly I will be gone for the weekend. Pointer I know you will be so disappointed, but don't worry I will be back on Monday to keep you on your toes. Peace be with all of you!

[Smalcald]

I think that for Protestants an understanding of early Church History will actually show why Luther did what he had to do, it will strengthen your faith and commitment to the ideals we hold.

Of course I know Pax would disagree! But regardless why deny that history? Are we that afraid as Protestants of what Luther did of understanding it?

I think we have an obligation to understand our own history, if we do not we could end up barking like dogs or praying for money on TBN.

Please expand on this smalcald. What would we learn from reading the early fathers epistles that would make us think that such a radical change was needed to reform the Church. You must admit Smalcald, Luthers teachings were a radical change from the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Some were more radical than others. But what Luther was saying was in the works for some time, in fact Luther sounds much like Augustine, which is why I encourage people to read both (which would make sense as Luther was an Augustinian Monk). I find much of what Luther has to say, in its core much more like what I read in the early Church Fathers and councils, than I do in reading what some of the pronouncements and actions coming out of the Church between 1100 and 1500 sound like. For me the radical change is looking at the difference between the opulence, worldliness and corruption of the hierarchy in 1500 and the Desert Fathers of 350, now that is a radical difference.

Now, what Luther unleashed was something that bothered him as much as the Roman Church bothered him. He honestly thought that he may convince the Church to change, he wanted to remain a part of the Roman Church but would not back down on what he believed, giving of course rise to his most famous comments about recanting.

There was and is a cost to the Reformation. That cost comes in the lack of Christian unity, splintering, and the bizarre idea of everyman being their own pope, a spiritual authority unto themselves. We can read this very board today and see that cost. However I maintain that the cost was worth it. But it does no good to pretend that there was not a cost and we must read the history of our Church to understand what has happened and where we are today.

[Guest godgivesall4us]

the historical evidence for ignatius is just as firm for ignatius. we have people in history writing concerning his writings and his existence.

clement of rome is quite interesting and it is amazing that we have him in scripture and then he is the bishop of the church in rome it seems. Then we get to read writings from him outside of scripture.

I never knew these writings existed, it is like I was in a vacuum where only scripture could be read to prove anything christian, yet we have a lot of history at our fingertips to look through and make the decision for ourselves what was being taught. I can see how limited the post tyndale view would be, we would be knocking out or omitting over a thousand years of history in christianity, bad and good.

thank you everyone for your help so far, I feel like I just jumped into a treasure chest!

peace, godgivesall4us