pointer Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2006 The shepherd deserves every penny he gets from his own sheep. That depends on how well a shepherd serves. It is the congregation who must be the judges of that. 'The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double reward, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.' 1 Tim 5:17-18 Note the plural 'elders'. It seems to me that any shepherd who thinks himself to be the only one in a congregation is not worth any pay at all. If a medical doctor who is a professional in the field can make millions, so should a pastor who has taken the time and education to get the skill and relationship with the Lord that God requires to shepherd properly. The requirements for eldership will be achieved by the proper aspirations of any mature, male Christian. Every man who has been a member of a genuine, Spirit-led congregation from youth will have absorbed enough Bible knowledge to be able to teach others, with his own insights as led by the Spirit. Even quite young men can be very effective leaders (as indeed Timothy was). Elders get paid, if they need any pay at all, for the time spent in actual work that prevents them from earning a living in the usual way. When churches can be run in the spare time of the elders and helpers, as in today's world they often can, there is no need for anyone to be paid at all. (Tithes are a total anachronism, related to the economy of the Israelites.) Much expense goes on buildings, but a fellowship can meet in the homes of its members, as the early church did, or, like Paul, hire a hall if numbers require it, in exactly the same way that voluntary secular groups organise themselves. It may well now have no need whatever for any paid staff. Its members can give surplus income to those of its members who are in need, or to members of other congregations who are in need, and to missionary outreach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 To be human is to be moral. If being human is being moral, then why is this world in the shape it is in? I don't mean 'moral' in the sense of 'good'. I mean it in the sense of having moral choice. Well then, you need to learn the English language. Anyway, you are still wrong. The fact remains is that children do not learn right from wrong by being wronged. That is just plain silly, and as I said, makes you look foolish. Morality and making moral choices are instilled in our children by instruction, and any intelligent, thinking person would know that. Laws enforce that instruction. At anyrate, your assertion that the Torah was based upon Egypt or the Sumerians has been torpedoed. You need to think things through before posting such erroneious silly assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2006 To be human is to be moral. If being human is being moral, then why is this world in the shape it is in? I don't mean 'moral' in the sense of 'good'. I mean it in the sense of having moral choice. Well then, you need to learn the English language. 'moral - of or relating to character or conduct considered as good or evil: ethical.' Chambers Dictionary Anyway, you are still wrong. The fact remains is that children do not learn right from wrong by being wronged. Of course they do. That is the whole point of having an animal body, nerves and all, in a fallen creation. What they learn from adults is that doing wrong gets punished. Sometimes. At anyrate, your assertion that the Torah was based upon Egypt or the Sumerians has been torpedoed. I did not assert that, and what I did has not even been scratched, anyway. What I did say was an aside, and on another occasion I may take time to exegete it factually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 QUOTE Anyway, you are still wrong. The fact remains is that children do not learn right from wrong by being wronged. Of course they do. That is the whole point of having an animal body, nerves and all, in a fallen creation. What they learn from adults is that doing wrong gets punished You are confusing learning with conditioning. Learning about morality is not the same as learning not to touch the hot stovetop. What they learn from adults are values. They learn not only that it is to steal, but they learn respect for others' property. They learn a value system that teaches them why it is important that we do not steal, lie, cheat, or commit violence against another person. They learn the intrinsic value of another person and of human life, in general. QUOTE At anyrate, your assertion that the Torah was based upon Egypt or the Sumerians has been torpedoed. I did not assert that, Yes you did. Since your memory is no good, here is a reminder of what you said: Even Mosaic Law was, in a measure, probably adapted from Egyptian and Sumerian law, which certainly pre-existed Moses. I have refuted it, and you have provided nothing but more of your typcial, futile attempts to deflect attention away from something you can't defend when presented with the facts. and what I did has not even been scratched, anyway Yes it has. You don't even understand the concept of morality. What I did say was an aside, and on another occasion I may take time to exegete it factually. No, you will just wait for it to get buried and hope everyone forgets about it so you don't have to face the humiliation of not being able to defend your weak postion. If you could "exegete" it, you would have done so. Your inability to do so, is the best argument against your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2006 QUOTE Anyway, you are still wrong. The fact remains is that children do not learn right from wrong by being wronged. Of course they do. That is the whole point of having an animal body, nerves and all, in a fallen creation. What they learn from adults is that doing wrong gets punished You are confusing learning with conditioning. Learning about morality is not the same as learning not to touch the hot stovetop. Learning not to touch the stove means learning not to make anyone else touch the stove. QUOTE At anyrate, your assertion that the Torah was based upon Egypt or the Sumerians has been torpedoed. I did not assert that, Yes you did. Since your memory is no good, here is a reminder of what you said: That is not what you said I said. and what I did has not even been scratched, anyway Yes it has. Mere assertion by shiloh is not argument, shiloh. You don't even understand the concept of morality. At least I have a dictionary. What I did say was an aside, and on another occasion I may take time to exegete it factually. No, you will just wait for it to get buried and hope everyone forgets about it Are you accusing me of lying, shiloh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2006 Matthew 19:21-22 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2006 Hey, ya'll...... Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naziyr Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/30/1984 Share Posted October 1, 2006 No pointer, she is bearing Judgement. The same as others who have come to this thread. We are in agreement as a body of believers, and bear whitness and judge that the little debate you and shiloh have should cease, or be moved elsewhere. This is not because the debate is invalid, but because it seems to be more aggression based than objective. Being that it's more or less "you're a fool" "no YOU are the fool"... The morality and origin of Torah is linked to it's validity in moral standards and judgement as divine revelation of G-d, but this isn't a thread about proving the origin and morality of Torah to be true. Both parties should submit their evidence, whether Torah or not, and move on to another debate about said subject outside of this one if their material is challenged beyond the scope of this current subject. I myself was a bit disturbed that I had to wade through three or more pages of "I'm right" "no I'm right" just to get back to the issue at hand. Besides... I believe everyone in this thread is fully soaked from the testosterone shower thank-you-very-much. Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeilanS Posted October 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,763 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/23/1990 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Hey, ya'll...... Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Learning not to touch the stove means learning not to make anyone else touch the stove. No it is not. It simply self preservation. Human experience which takes delight in other's pain, pretty much refutes you. Humans enjoy hurting others. That also refutes your assertion that to be human is to be moral. That is not what you said I said. Yes it is. You tried to conntect the Mosaic Law with the Egyptian and Sumerian law saying that the Mosaic law was adapted from Egypt and Sumer, and I demonstrated that such an assertion is false. The Torah is based upon Divine revelation, period. You can deny it, but facts are facts. Mere assertion by shiloh is not argument, shiloh. It is an assertion backed up by your inability to provide a cogent, intelligent refutation. At least I have a dictionary. Dictionaries don't give you working understanding of a concept, and how it plays out in real life. Your assertion that to be human is moral, and that morality is learned by experience demonstrates that you really don't have a grasp on it. You are just too prideful to admit the truth. Are you accusing me of lying, shiloh? If you had the ability to refute what I have presented, you would have done so. I think you are just hoping it will all just disappear, and you won't have to refute anything. It just points to the fact that your argument is is without any foundation, and the whole "I'll get back to that" is usually just an evasive maneuver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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