Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

RCruise,

amen brother. An apt and very meaningful addition.

[eric]

RCruise,

amen brother. An apt and very meaningful addition.

Thaddaeus. you alwaya get a meaningful word from brother Cruise, Nice of you to pop by.bro, and pay us a visit. I have always enjoyed your posts and been blessed by them.

and have missed them.

Bless you in His ministry,

e

[Thaddaeus]

Christopher John,

I don't necessarily believe that the term to work out ones salvation is the life long endeavor to achieve salvation but it is the reward(s) that one achieves in the Kingdom.

I don't disagree that there are rewards, or levels in the Kingdom. All that endure do not endure with the same growth, the same sanctification, the transforming us into His Image. However, all of this is moot if one does not have Christ, the prize.

The term "working out one's salvation" is just that. It is a life long living IN Christ. It is a life long communion with God. It is a life long journey of denying self and taking up His Cross. We are saved through faith, not by faith. We are justified by faith, which permits entry into the Kingdom. But if we do not endure, if we are not faithful, if we do not follow, do not abide, we do not have Christ.

Working out ones salvation is "after the fact" salvation achieved...work out your rewards and or position for the Heavenly Abode which is to come, is what I beleive is meant by "working out ones salvation".

quite the contrary. It is the "fact" of salvation. The living of faith, is the means to the end, which is eternal life with Christ. That eternal life does and can begin right now, in this life, but it must be maintained, it must be worked out. It is a living of the faith, walking in the light.

Keep in mind that our works are never attributed to salvation but the rewards given us unto our salvation ...unless that foundation of works is not built on faith in Christ.

1Corinthians 3:11-15

You cannot show that from scripture. That is an assumption on your part to support your view. Any believer begins to build on the foundation of Christ. But not all of our works are good, are done in faith. We are not perfect. That is why we need the help that is available to us to remain IN Him. But in the end, we will be purified. All those works not done in faith will be burned off and those that were of gold, silver built on Christ in faith will be made manifest. If one does not have Christ, you will not be purified. All your works were of self, not of Christ and will receive the just reward.

When one says that works cannot be attributed to salvation, they miss the whole understanding of salvation. Works cannot save a man from the fall. All the texts that deal with works not saving mankind ALL reference the works that man cannot do, and thus Christ is the only answer. However, once in faith, once we accept Christ, our life is nothing else except works of faithfulness, they are called works of righteousness. Their intent is not the same as those that cannot save us. Christ saved us. He saved us from the fall. He saved us so that man could fulfil the created mandate of his very existance, to WORK WITH GOD. The salvation of our souls is all about works. You cannot do it without works. Read James, it is the manual of Christian living.

[RCruise]

Its a great post sheds alot of light from some really great angles. Where I think the greatest confusion lay is in the term itself "working out ones salvation". As we have seen so often when discussing salvation it is a reward that is granted to us by Grace through faith. I don't necessarily believe that the term to work out ones salvation is the life long endeavor to achieve salvation but it is the reward(s) that one achieves in the Kingdom.

Prophecy reveals to us that there will be some who will shine with the brightness of the sun or stars in the Kingdom for their work here on earth for the Lord, there are differing degrees and or a higherarchy structure in the kingdom. Working out ones salvation is "after the fact" salvation achieved...work out your rewards and or position for the Heavenly Abode which is to come, is what I beleive is meant by "working out ones salvation".

Keep in mind that our works are never attributed to salvation but the rewards given us unto our salvation ...unless that foundation of works is not built on faith in Christ.

1Corinthians 3:11-15

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Far too much emphasis regarding loss of salvation is based on works... verse 15 clarifies that all of an individuals works may be burned but that individual is saved by grace through faith, yet so as by fire removing the works that are not deemed righteous unto God...if nothing remains, well it is only salvation that you have and will be looking up at those in the Kingdom who have achieved a greater reward for the works that were refined by the fire and not destroyed by it.

I think the parable of the Kings talents in Mathew 25 is also a great example.

Works is about rewards, working out your salvation is working out where you will stand in the Kingdom.

In Christ

CJ

Blessings in Jesus CJ,

The term "working out our salvation.." is not a bad term yet it is definitely about "Salvation". What I have found through much prayer and study is that James also dealing with Faith with or without works plus all the Scriptural evidence against OSAS concepts leads to a very clear and evidential dividing of terms. There are "works of the flesh" and "Work of Faith". The "Work of Faith" is bound up in Abiding and Living in Jesus, the True Vine. When you take all the evidential Scripture that points to "losing one's salvation" (which I don't believe you can lose it but must forsake or depart willingly and against many odds and struggles of Christ beckoning and calling out to us), we see that a different work than flesh is evident. Throughout the Whole Gospels Jesus emphasized a Relationship with Him beyond any we have ever or will ever have with anyone else so that it makes the others appear as "hate" by comparison.

He commanded this and even said that any who do not are not worthy of Him. Taking all He put forth (and remember His Words alone are LIFE....not any other man's) we see a necessity that if we are to stand strong against all the wiles and attacks of the enemy from every front, only this "ABIDING" .... In communication and prayer and His Word (Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God), will increase Jesus within us and lessen "self" so that we don't fall prey to the lusts of the flesh and not only that but His Power only comes through that deep Intimacy to conquer and overcome ALL within us. This is the "Word of Faith". It is inherent and intrensic ro our Faith in Jesus. And by it, we are cleansed, strengthened and made wise in God and produce the other "good works" naturally which are good and fruitful but not dependent upon Salvation. The Work of Faith is wrapped up in the "...through Faith.." part of Eph 2:8=9.

[TomPJr]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

I think that being born again is the same as being converted...

If you are truly born again in spirit, then your heart is converted. However, we still have our old nature and bad habits that we must overcome lest they un-convert us.

Many people claim to be born again, but they are lying to themselves, or the temptations overtake them an they fall back to their old nature.

I believe that Judas was converted, and born again, but he let his sinful nature overtake him.

If your heart is converted then you are on the road to repentence and making progress along the way. If you are not converted, then there will be no true progress, and just vain attempts to justify your lifestyle.

the truth is that while God is willing for us to be converted unto Godlyness, Satan is trying to convert us to his side. We are what we behold. We become like what we spend time with. That is why it is so important to abstain from immoral conduct, whether it be in person, tv, radio, etc.... If we choose to endulge in immoral activities, we just strengthen the old habbits.

You know i see you keep saying that you can lose salvation, or be unconverted. There has been plenty of scripture that says you can't. YOu claim there is scripture that says it can happen, somethings wrong! IF you have scripture that says you can lose salvation going against the very doctrine of Chrsit, then you don't believe the bible is inerrant.

The bible IS however inerrant and agrees completely with itself. So based on that, it would be impossible to lose one salvation based on your verses. Since they do not agree with the verses taht say Salvation is secure then they must mean something else.

Otherwise the bible is entirely false.

Or could it be that your verses mean something else? I do not believe that the bible contradicts itself...just the lies that Satan has decieved people with so that they will not be ready, and they will falsly believe they are secure That is exactly what Satan wants....

I, like the aposltes, warn people to repent, and convert....

People like you tell them to relax, your saved, you don't have to do anything, Jesus will do it all for you, there's nothing to worry about....

well, if your heart is converted then there is nothing to worry about.

[TomPJr]

You know i see you keep saying that you can lose salvation, or be unconverted. There has been plenty of scripture that says you can't. YOu claim there is scripture that says it can happen, somethings wrong! IF you have scripture that says you can lose salvation going against the very doctrine of Chrsit, then you don't believe the bible is inerrant.

The bible IS however inerrant and agrees completely with itself. So based on that, it would be impossible to lose one salvation based on your verses. Since they do not agree with the verses taht say Salvation is secure then they must mean something else.

Otherwise the bible is entirely false.

Or could it be that the premise upon which the bible is interpreted is false?

[Deathstar 80]

Say a person does get saved. For a few years, they go around to people talking about Jesus and the Gospel. Suddenly, they think their salvation is permanent, so for the rest of their life, they drink, say the lords name in vain, steal from people, break the law, buy drugs, etc.. Is this person still saved?

If you look at Judas, Jesus chose him to be one of his followers. Did Judas go to heaven? If he did, then OSAS is true. Keep in mind, though, that Jesus called Judas a 'devil'. I beleive this means that Judas didn't go to heaven because of his betrayal, therefore proving that OSAS is false. You can backslide.

[Mutzrein]

I was keeping things in context for what is needed to be born again. We are to be born of the water and of the Spirit. It takes both.

As to answer your earlier comment, I was pointing out that it is all sin that defiles man and not just one in particular. That is why Christ quoted a list of sins.

Would you not say that when the statement is made, "you must be born again", that this actually means to be born of the Spirit, and of necessity for this to take place we must already be born of water?

Thankyou for the clarification on the other point.

[Thaddaeus]

Christopher, John,

There is no act that any one person can do to substitute the Father's sacrifice of His only son. There is no act, rite, work or ritual, which can substitute for Christ's death on the cross in return for salvation. People have to realize that salvation is a free gift, like it or not and yes I can definatley demonstrate that from scripture (John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Galatians 2:16 etc...) One can not start adding rules and regulations to Gods commandments, the Pharasees and Scribes already tried that, it only brought them condemnation and for some if not most of that generation, damnation.

wholly different subject. We are not speaking of What Christ did. What Christ did for mankind was to bring us out from the condemnation through Adam. He freed us so we could do what we fell from.

What we fell from is all about works, working with God in this creation. This is not the salvation of mankind, but is referencing the salvation of our souls. Two very different aspects of salvation. You seem to be confluting them.

And that leads to the first part of your comments, in that I was separating unbelievers and believers. Absolutely, the text that was quoted I Cor 3:11-15 is only about believers. Respective of the OSAS, in that a simply mental assertion saves a person, then after that it is the works that bring rewards is wholly incorrect. Salvation of our souls, the union with God, the communion with God, for which we were created, is all about works. The works, THROUGH FAITH, is what saves a man, individually. Christ had nothing to do, directly with saving you as an individual. Adam judgement was universal in scope just as Christ's work was universal in scope, but as the former precluded our union with God, the latter reaffirmed the possibility. The latter is what we were created to do. It is what you would be doing even if the fall had never occurred. It is why you exist. It has nothing to do with the fall, except that the fall precluded it from happening. Christ corrected that problem. SO man could freely be in union with God again. We enter by faith, we are saved through faith. It is all about continuously working, a working faith.

Many come to the faith not knowing the faith, nor understanding the faith, thus fall away from the faith, because they do not seek the Lord with their hearts. As many opposers to OSAS so often do, they try to attribute the personal faults of unbelievers as being actual believers who fall away from the faith thus appearing to be"losing" their salvation, when it is quite clear it eluded them right from the start because of the unbelief in their hearts.

You beginning statment is an oxymoran. It is a built in contradiction. If they came to faith, they have faith. Faith is faith period. The Bible does not define levels of faith. We have it or we don't. We can mature in it, we begin as babes, we can even be weak, but it is still faith. That is the contradiction that is created in the false premise that one has 'salvation, thus cannot lose it". Salvation is the means to the inheritance. It is based on faith. Faith is the determinent of the end. If we begin with faith, if we maintained that faith, if we endured that faith, we shall inherit that promise in the end. That end cannot be lost, but anywhere in this life it is dependent on faith. No place, absolutely, no place is it ever based on unbelief, or rejection of Christ, even if we once believed. You cannot be IN Christ unless you believe. It is a constant, active. living faith, never ceases. If it does, one is also no longer in Christ. You can repent and return, see prodigal Son.

Thus all the parables including the sower, the virgins, the prodigal son, and others. all speak of the faithful falling away. A person who had faith, but departed from that first faith. In the sower, the only seed that does not describe a believer is the very first. It fell on the road itself and birds ate it. Never took root at all. But the next, it did take root, but because it got overrun with thornes and thistles, gave up and succumbed to the pressures of the world.

There are only two groups in the Bible. One is either a believer or an unbeliever. Thus when you speak of a partial believer, or a supposed believer, or a believer who falls away, it is what he is, a believer. An unbeliever cannot possibly fall away. What is he falling from? Falling from faith in every single instance is losing or has the possibility of not recieving the end, the promise, the inheritance awaiting those that persevere, that remain IN Christ. Losing faith is losing salvation. You cannot attain salvation without faith. They go together. We are saved THROUGH faith, no other way, not by faith, (we are justified by faith) But if one loses faith, you are also no longer justified. Justified here means to be aright with God, to be IN Christ. You would be unjustified, outside of Christ.

A believer will come to a believing heart when the time is right, God has revealed Himself to all mankind

That is without question, but that same believer can reject Christ at any time. He can waver, he can repent, he can begin a long slide down to willful disobedience and sin and permanently fall away, It might be to late to repent as the Virgins vividly describe.

As far as irrefutable scripture goes...I'll leave you with John 10:27-30 to contemplate

It is a great text of God's promise. But God has never been the problem in our relationship with Him. It seems we are the constant problem. We are the fickle, the weak, the easily led astray, easily tempted and succumbing. If you can find a single text that has that same kind of gurantee for you then you can speak about eternal security. Untill and unless you can make a promise as God can, and hold to it, then you will have eternal security.

Or the other option, you would need to show that we are not moral agents, have no will of our own, and God is the only active agent in the arrangement. It is not a relationship, a mutual, loving, freely given obedience and following, denying self, taking up Christ's Cross.

I don't think you will be able to find any support on these. The above list is the freely made decisions of man, all of which can be rejected at any time, the consequence is either eternal life with God or apart from Him.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Phil.2:12]

This has been an ongoing debate since Joseph Armenius fell out with his teacher and mentor, John Calvin. Calvin got his five points that make up the acronym TULIP from St. Augustine, so this debate has long roots. When I accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord, it was in a Southern Baptist church, so my early Christian training came from this denomination and there is no other denomination that I'm aware of who is as adamant on the "Once Saved, Always Saved" position as they are. Hence, I've heard many an argument on both sides of this debate. What intrigues me is that all arguments, both for and against, depend on snippits of Scripture taken out of context to prove both sides. But is impossible for both sides of this age-old question to be truly supported by the Word of God since that would make God the instrument of confusion and the Scriptures clearly state in 1 Cor. 14:33 "for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the saints". This comment by Paul to the folks at Corinth was in the context of his explaining the phenomenon of speaking in tongues to this church. Thus, the only valid position on "Once Saved, Always Saved" is the Scriptural position that is gained from a careful and prayerful search of the New Testament on the subject of eternal salvation. As late as 2001, I was defending the OSAS position as this question was the central subject of the last chapter in my doctrinal dissertation. About 2 years after this dissertation was accepted and my degree awarded, my Lord patiently led me through the New Testament, showing me things I had never seen before in the Scriptures. He was proving to me just what the Scriptural position on eternal security realy is and the research literally blew my mind. I now know the Scriptural position is that you really can loose your salvation (think Adam in the Garden), but it is really hard to acomplish such a feat.