Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[TomPJr]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

[Ovedya]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

[TomPJr]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

The truth doesn't change regardless....

and NO, I am not pagan.

Show me where it says they are the same entity.

there are tons of texts that describe them as being different entities.

They are the same in nature, mindset, goal, etc... but, are two different persons.

Why is that so hard to understand....oh yeah, because that is what we've been taught all our lives.

If what you say is true, then Jesus prayed to himself....and he cried out to himself on the cross....

also the creation proclaims plurality.

but, go ahead and read your translation into it....

It really probably doesn't matter. The truth is that Jesus is God, and we must believe in him, and confess and repent.

peace,

Tom

[Ovedya]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

The truth doesn't change regardless....

and NO, I am not pagan.

Show me where it says they are the same entity.

there are tons of texts that describe them as being different entities.

They are the same in nature, mindset, goal, etc... but, are two different persons.

Why is that so hard to understand....oh yeah, because that is what we've been taught all our lives.

If what you say is true, then Jesus prayed to himself....and he cried out to himself on the cross....

also the creation proclaims plurality.

but, go ahead and read your translation into it....

It really probably doesn't matter. The truth is that Jesus is God, and we must believe in him, and confess and repent.

peace,

Tom

Why so angry?

According to you, Jesus is a god, not the God. That would make you a polytheist. No different, really, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Mormons - who are also essentially pagans.

[Ovedya]

Just part of my beliefs on this subject. In the past, I have gone into detail and provided much scriputure. It has all been posted before, so no need to repeat. This is my practical opinion on this subject. There are a very small few who honestly enjoy the intellectual, scriptural debate of this subject. They are Godly, Christian people. The vast majority of people who cleave to O.S.A.S. cleave to it so dearly because their heart is not right. Their life is not right. They cleave to this fire insurance because their conscience is being seared by their sin. I would think that most on here are right with God, your lifestyle is as it should be; you live a holy life. I think most on here are debating from the intellectual, scriptural point of view. At the same time, the proponenets of O.S.A.S. are putting out a crutch for those living in sin. You are giving a comfort to the backslidden christian that is allowing him to stay in his sinful state. This assurance lets him continue to embrace his life of sin and not turn to repentance. (I know, I have been there.) I would have never allowed myself to fall into the drunken, partying, ungodly, lifestyle had it not been for the doctrine of O.S.A.S.

Whew! Let he who is without sin.....

I do not "cleave" to anything but my Lord Jesus! Doctrines, teachings, rituals, religion and dead works be dashed, I know that I am saved because the Christ whom I love has given Himself willingly to sacrifice once for all. My salvation is assured because the blood of Christ is eternally efficacious. I have been saved. I am being saved. And I will be saved.

Who are you, O man, to judge the condition of my heart?

[JB Horn]

1 Corinthians 2

14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.

[HolyHands]

Just part of my beliefs on this subject. In the past, I have gone into detail and provided much scriputure. It has all been posted before, so no need to repeat. This is my practical opinion on this subject. There are a very small few who honestly enjoy the intellectual, scriptural debate of this subject. They are Godly, Christian people. The vast majority of people who cleave to O.S.A.S. cleave to it so dearly because their heart is not right. Their life is not right. They cleave to this fire insurance because their conscience is being seared by their sin. I would think that most on here are right with God, your lifestyle is as it should be; you live a holy life. I think most on here are debating from the intellectual, scriptural point of view. At the same time, the proponenets of O.S.A.S. are putting out a crutch for those living in sin. You are giving a comfort to the backslidden christian that is allowing him to stay in his sinful state. This assurance lets him continue to embrace his life of sin and not turn to repentance. (I know, I have been there.) I would have never allowed myself to fall into the drunken, partying, ungodly, lifestyle had it not been for the doctrine of O.S.A.S.

Whew! Let he who is without sin.....

I do not "cleave" to anything but my Lord Jesus! Doctrines, teachings, rituals, religion and dead works be dashed, I know that I am saved because the Christ whom I love has given Himself willingly to sacrifice once for all. My salvation is assured because the blood of Christ is eternally efficacious. I have been saved. I am being saved. And I will be saved.

Who are you, O man, to judge the condition of my heart?

I think you need to re-read what I said. Closely re-read it. There was nothing judgmental about the post. I would most definitely put you in the category of "Godly Christian people."

If you honelstly think about the practical application of OSAS outside the academic realm, when does its discussion come up? Who usually brings it up?

Its normally the individual who tries to justify their sinful ways. I believe the vast majority of christians that live a life a holiness, will admit that they do fall, however they do not continue to remain in the sinful. It is my opinion that this doctrine, makes room that you can live a life raising cain, and still profess to be living a life of holiness.

In the concept that its being preached or viewed to day...I don't agree with it.

But as long as we are in Christ..we will always be "saved"

[Ovedya]

I have a serious problem with believers who make blanket statements regarding the condition of the hearts and behavior of other believers. Neither "the vast majority" of persons nor the "normal individuals" who happen to adhere to the OSAS belief act a certain way - anymore than one who does not adhere to that doctrine. These are only presumptions based upon your prejudices against the doctrine of OSAS.

Seems to me that one who follows Christ and appreciates Him on the basis of their eternal standing is likely to serve Christ out of love and to act out of faith. This one has a great appreciation for the eternal efficacy of Christ's blood, and are willing to be brought on to maturity. On the other hand, the one who believes that in a sudden moment they could sacrifice their standing before God and their salvation by an accidental thought, or an intentional deed, may serve God out of fear. Their works will be strictly according to their understanding that God only grants the blessing of eternal life in the age to come because of their fearful servitude.

From the one who loves God and appreciates the blessings of eternal life flows the blessings of daily salvation in life through the working out of faith. From the one who fears God flows the superficial outward manifestations of works that are purely conciliatory in nature - to appease an angry and vengeful God.

Never for one moment consider that anything other than the natural life in itself could lend itself to the downfall of any believer. The pull of the world, the flesh, and sin are far greater than any other burden the believer has to endure and overcome.

[TomPJr]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

The truth doesn't change regardless....

and NO, I am not pagan.

Show me where it says they are the same entity.

there are tons of texts that describe them as being different entities.

They are the same in nature, mindset, goal, etc... but, are two different persons.

Why is that so hard to understand....oh yeah, because that is what we've been taught all our lives.

If what you say is true, then Jesus prayed to himself....and he cried out to himself on the cross....

also the creation proclaims plurality.

but, go ahead and read your translation into it....

It really probably doesn't matter. The truth is that Jesus is God, and we must believe in him, and confess and repent.

peace,

Tom

Why so angry?

According to you, Jesus is a god, not the God. That would make you a polytheist. No different, really, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Mormons - who are also essentially pagans.

I'm not angry at all.

Sorry if my words apear that way...I just stated my opinion.

to set you straight, I am quite different from mormons, and Latter day saints. Just because their may be a similar belief in one area, doesn't make us similar.

we all have some similar beliefs, don't we?

the topic at hand is "once saved always saved" any way.

I really don't think that our difference in opinion of whether Jesus and the Father are the same entity or not is a crucial issue. I'm sure we can agree that we can't obtain salvation without Jesus. Right?

Tom

[Ovedya]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

The truth doesn't change regardless....

and NO, I am not pagan.

Show me where it says they are the same entity.

there are tons of texts that describe them as being different entities.

They are the same in nature, mindset, goal, etc... but, are two different persons.

Why is that so hard to understand....oh yeah, because that is what we've been taught all our lives.

If what you say is true, then Jesus prayed to himself....and he cried out to himself on the cross....

also the creation proclaims plurality.

but, go ahead and read your translation into it....

It really probably doesn't matter. The truth is that Jesus is God, and we must believe in him, and confess and repent.

peace,

Tom

Why so angry?

According to you, Jesus is a god, not the God. That would make you a polytheist. No different, really, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Mormons - who are also essentially pagans.

I'm not angry at all.

Sorry if my words apear that way...I just stated my opinion.

to set you straight, I am quite different from mormons, and Latter day saints. Just because their may be a similar belief in one area, doesn't make us similar.

we all have some similar beliefs, don't we?

the topic at hand is "once saved always saved" any way.

I really don't think that our difference in opinion of whether Jesus and the Father are the same entity or not is a crucial issue. I'm sure we can agree that we can't obtain salvation without Jesus. Right?

Tom

I think it is important. I believe that Jesus as the one God is a crucial matter of the orthodox faith.