Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[apothanein kerdos]

And notice how you fail to use exegetical rules to give us an interpretation of those scriptures. Instead, you take a prima facie approach...which 90% of the time will lead to bad doctrine. Care to extrapolate each and every one of those scriptures, giving us the context, the historical context and how this influenced what was being said, and how the Greek furthers the support of your idea?

Do you have that much time? Wouldn't it be better for you yourself to take each of those verses and read them so that you can see how they fit? This is why we are told to study.

There are many, many fatihs that base their religion on just John 3:16 and Eph 2:8,9 and nobody tells them the same things you just required from me.

I study the bible and use ALL of the scriptures that were given to mankind and inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. If anybody really wants to know what those scriptures mean then they can look them up themselves.

A lot of those verses are self explanitory anyway and need no profound expounding.

No, I want you to use proper hermeneutics on every passage. I'm not going to let you get away with posting a bunch of one liner scriptures. I've already done it with most of those scriptures, specifically the ones in Hebrews, for my benefit. Your turn. You want to tout that you've studied and understand the Bible, prove it.

Can you please provide scripture supporting this?

Philippians 1:6-7 - For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

The Book of Philippians is addressing the persecution faced by the intended audience. Paul is stating that though he had to leave them early, he is sure that God will continue a good work in them, and that He will be faithful to complete it. The structure of this sentence places the power in God's hands for the completion, and takes it out of the hands of the audience. The two key Greek words here are enarksamenos and epitelesei. The former, in its grammatical construct, means "to create" or "to begin." In other words, this "good work" (faith) was created by God, not by their own actions. It was given to them by God. The latter Greek word solidifies that salvation is not our own in that it literally means, "completed." In other words, Paul is saying, "God created and initiated the faith you have, and He will complete that faith you have on the day you are with Christ." If we can leave the faith, this allows us more power than God, since He is the author and finisher of our faith.

This is just one passage - but as you can see, there is no alternative interpretation. From this, we must look at other passages and compare your interpretation of the passages to this one.

[TomPJr]

And notice how you fail to use exegetical rules to give us an interpretation of those scriptures. Instead, you take a prima facie approach...which 90% of the time will lead to bad doctrine. Care to extrapolate each and every one of those scriptures, giving us the context, the historical context and how this influenced what was being said, and how the Greek furthers the support of your idea?

Do you have that much time? Wouldn't it be better for you yourself to take each of those verses and read them so that you can see how they fit? This is why we are told to study.

There are many, many fatihs that base their religion on just John 3:16 and Eph 2:8,9 and nobody tells them the same things you just required from me.

I study the bible and use ALL of the scriptures that were given to mankind and inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. If anybody really wants to know what those scriptures mean then they can look them up themselves.

A lot of those verses are self explanitory anyway and need no profound expounding.

No, I want you to use proper hermeneutics on every passage. I'm not going to let you get away with posting a bunch of one liner scriptures. I've already done it with most of those scriptures, specifically the ones in Hebrews, for my benefit. Your turn. You want to tout that you've studied and understand the Bible, prove it.

Can you please provide scripture supporting this?

Philippians 1:6-7 - For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

The Book of Philippians is addressing the persecution faced by the intended audience. Paul is stating that though he had to leave them early, he is sure that God will continue a good work in them, and that He will be faithful to complete it. The structure of this sentence places the power in God's hands for the completion, and takes it out of the hands of the audience. The two key Greek words here are enarksamenos and epitelesei. The former, in its grammatical construct, means "to create" or "to begin." In other words, this "good work" (faith) was created by God, not by their own actions. It was given to them by God. The latter Greek word solidifies that salvation is not our own in that it literally means, "completed." In other words, Paul is saying, "God created and initiated the faith you have, and He will complete that faith you have on the day you are with Christ." If we can leave the faith, this allows us more power than God, since He is the author and finisher of our faith.

This is just one passage - but as you can see, there is no alternative interpretation. From this, we must look at other passages and compare your interpretation of the passages to this one.

You are right that God will continue his work in us....but that doesn't mean that we have to allow him to bring us to repentence.

God will try everything in his power(other than taking away our free will) to get us to repent and convert. We must repent and convert in order to gain salvation. It's not that our works of repentence earn our salvation, because nothing we do can earn it, but Salvation is a conditional gift. The condition is that we have a change in heart, die to our flesh, be converted, and repent. You may not make it to repentence before you die, but the question is are you on the right path?

god knows your heart.

It is very dangerous to say I Accept Jesus, be baptized, and just rely on your faith that God will change you. It does take an effort to change. That is what sacrifice is all about. We need to deny our fleshly desires in order to develope Godly habbits, and kill the old nature. We must take up Jesus's cup and follow him.

The Devil wants us to relax and presume on our salvation and just sit back and think ...oh, God will work it out for me because I believe. He wants you to believe that so you will relax in your faith and not try to deny your flesh. Think about it.

I know many people who think like that, and I used to, and they just continue in sin because they feel that they can't quit, and it must not be time yet, because God didn't miraculusly take the temptation away. that's absurd! God will not tempt us beyond what we can bear. God never said that he would take away the temptations, or the law. He said that he would put the laws in our hearts and in our minds, so that we would know what it is and want to obey it.

[apothanein kerdos]

What you just said contradicts the passage. The passage says that God will complete, this means work about and bring us to a completion, a finishing, of our salvation. Repentance is part of salvation. Who's right, you or Paul?

[TomPJr]

What you just said contradicts the passage. The passage says that God will complete, this means work about and bring us to a completion, a finishing, of our salvation. Repentance is part of salvation. Who's right, you or Paul?

Your question implies that one of us is wrong, when in fact we are both right.

The scripture does say that he will complete his work in us...key words "his work".

I believe that this means he will completely exaust all of his efforts to try to bring about conversion in our lives. Some people just will not change. That doesn't mean that God never tried, or that he failed....he will say that he did everything that he could.

I believe that God works in all of our hearts. But we know that it will be the minority who are saved. That doesn't mean thet he never began a good work in the others....it just means that they were stubborn or that their hearts were hardened and they could not be converted no matter what God did. The only thing that he will not do to get us to convert is take away our free will. If he did take away our free will then all who claim to be Christians would be saved, but we know that there will be many so-called Christians thrown into the lake of fire.

[Floatingaxe]

NO! Stop harassing me with your inane attempts to label what I, and I believe most Christians believe! Salvation is received by faith through grace, and it propels us on to good works. OSAS is something that is true only in those who actively are walking and growing in Christ throughout life....otherwise it is lie to believe that you can accept salvation and continue to live without consecration. The only works that saves us is Christ's work on the CROSS.

Then you believe in eternal security.

Let me break this down for you.

You state that our initial act of salvation comes by faith, likewise, that faith produces our good works. The Bible states that faith is begun by, and finished by, God. It says when we initially accept Christ, we die to ourselves and enter into a covenant with Him. In this covenant, He takes control. It is therefore impossible to render up our faith when we are not in ultimate control of our faith. This does not make us robots, but merely shows that Christ has put us on a road of sanctification, a road from which we cannot depart. The reason is we belong to Him at that point. Notice how the Bible uses strong language when referring to our salvation, that we are adopted into the family of God, that we were bought with a price. The "bought with a price" is key...can we steal ourselves away from God? Of course not. Thus, when you make it a completely faith matter, then you cannot fall away. Those that do fall away had no faith to begin with, i.e. were not saved.

At the point you deny works, you HAVE to believe in eternal security, or, you have to deny the Sovereignty of God.

NO. Stop putting words in my mouth--if you believe that, then put your name to it. I can speak for myself.

[Floatingaxe]

Well which is it? If we are saved by faith, which is something God gives us and maintains, it is literally impossible for us to overpower Him and walk away. If we can walk away, then it is purely works based. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't know where you get your information from, but this is totaly incorrect. Like I said earlier, you have to know your bible.

You say that once we have been saved that we can't overpower him and walk away. The bible says different.

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This verse is speaking of someone who has been sanctified, but choose to sin. By doing this he has trodden underfoot the Son of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This verse speaks of Christians who have fallen away. To fall away is to leave God and go back into the world.

Here is a list of scriptures that speak of people turning their backs on God -

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Yes! The Word speaks for itself!

[apothanein kerdos]

NO. Stop putting words in my mouth--if you believe that, then put your name to it. I can speak for myself.

I'm merely providing you with the logical conclusion for your belief.

Your question implies that one of us is wrong, when in fact we are both right.

No Tom, we hold mutually exclusive views. Two opposites cannot both be true.

The scripture does say that he will complete his work in us...key words "his work".

I believe that this means he will completely exaust all of his efforts to try to bring about conversion in our lives. Some people just will not change. That doesn't mean that God never tried, or that he failed....he will say that he did everything that he could.

Believe it all you want, it doesn't fit the context. You're using an exegetical error - you're reading your interpretation into the passage. The context shows salvation, fellowship, and endurance.

Likewise, how can He complete something if it is not, in fact, complete? The idea presented by the two Greek words is key - it shows He begins our faith, stays with our faith, and will complete our faith. If He is in control of it, how can we leave it?

[apothanein kerdos]

You are interpreting incorrectly. It seems as though you think that we have nothing to do with or in our Christianity and that after we are saved that God does all these things within us that we have no control over.

Really? Am I supposed to take you seriously after this? That's how you respond to a contextual interpretation? How are you valid, in any way? You used absolutely no hermeneutics and didn't even try to explain the scripture. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

Oh, and I'm not going to let you forget about your little misadventure in not providing any evidence for your scriptures.

You can't expect to tell people "Thus spake the Lord" when your entire reasoning is as follows:

Cardcaptor - Your interpretation is wrong!

AK - Why? I provided you with Greek, contextual analysis, and even a bit of the historical analysis.

Cardcaptor - It's wrong because it I say so!

AK - Uh...okay, what about your scriptures?

Cardpactor - You don't understand the scriptures, my interpretation is right!

[TomPJr]

You are interpreting incorrectly. It seems as though you think that we have nothing to do with or in our Christianity and that after we are saved that God does all these things within us that we have no control over.

Really? Am I supposed to take you seriously after this? That's how you respond to a contextual interpretation? How are you valid, in any way? You used absolutely no hermeneutics and didn't even try to explain the scripture. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

Oh, and I'm not going to let you forget about your little misadventure in not providing any evidence for your scriptures.

You can't expect to tell people "Thus spake the Lord" when your entire reasoning is as follows:

Cardcaptor - Your interpretation is wrong!

AK - Why? I provided you with Greek, contextual analysis, and even a bit of the historical analysis.

Cardcaptor - It's wrong because it I say so!

AK - Uh...okay, what about your scriptures?

Cardpactor - You don't understand the scriptures, my interpretation is right!

you do the same thing...

and your big words (hermeneutics?) is unimpressive.

[apothanein kerdos]

You are interpreting incorrectly. It seems as though you think that we have nothing to do with or in our Christianity and that after we are saved that God does all these things within us that we have no control over.

Really? Am I supposed to take you seriously after this? That's how you respond to a contextual interpretation? How are you valid, in any way? You used absolutely no hermeneutics and didn't even try to explain the scripture. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

Oh, and I'm not going to let you forget about your little misadventure in not providing any evidence for your scriptures.

You can't expect to tell people "Thus spake the Lord" when your entire reasoning is as follows:

Cardcaptor - Your interpretation is wrong!

AK - Why? I provided you with Greek, contextual analysis, and even a bit of the historical analysis.

Cardcaptor - It's wrong because it I say so!

AK - Uh...okay, what about your scriptures?

Cardpactor - You don't understand the scriptures, my interpretation is right!

you do the same thing...

and your big words (hermeneutics?) is unimpressive.

How do I do the same thing? I used Greek, history, context, etc to bring about a proper interpretation. That's much different than saying, "No, you're wrong" and then failing to verify how a person is wrong. At least when I make a truth statement about something, I attempt to validate it.

Again, do you have anything to add, or did you just want to criticize me that way you could avoid my argument?