Smalcald Posted October 16, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Everybody wants to argue about whether it was only our past sins that were covered on the cross or not, and such silly arguments really miss the point of what was accomplished on the cross. The work of the cross changes what we are. It was not our past, present or future sins that caused us to go to hell. Those things are the out-working of our old nature. It was our old nature, our old position, under law and living under the dominion of sin that was sending us to hell, and keeping us separated from God. We are born into that condition by default. The cross of Christ deals strikes at the root of the problem. Hello Shiloh Okay now I'm really confused Shiloh. You are saying we are not dead to the old nature but here you say it was the old nature that was sending us to hell. If we are not dead to the old nature, aren't we all still heading for hell? OC No, because we are born again. We are no longer under dominion of the power of sin. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, and have been declared righteous. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we have been taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We still have a fallen human nature, and we war againt our flesh. We were redeemed from the curse of the law, not the curse of the fall. We still have to grapple with our fallible humanity. If our human nature had been eradicated, we would be incapable of sinning. As Christians we are in, or should be in a process of sanctification. We are daily being renewed, and are casting off old habits, old thoughts, and all of those things that are not in line with God's Word. Or, at least we should be. It is in process of sancification that we war against our flesh, that aspect of our old nature that wants to do the opposite of what God wants us to do. What if we are confident but have no war, have no daily renewal? Is false confidence possible? I think this is what the warnings Butaro quoted were referring to. There is no doubt that the Jewish leader who ate with Christ yet Christ admonished, was indeed confident in his position in front of God, there is no doubt that the Pharisee who prayed that he was glad he was not sinful like others had confidence in his salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Since the topic is OSAS, we can omit the the Work of Christ on the Cross, the Gift itself. Man had nothing to do with this aspect of His salvation. It is totally objective. OSAS is not refering to this aspect but it does refer to the offer of that Gift to mankind. We, as believers appropriate it by faith, which is justification. Or we lay hold of Christ' work which was done for us. However, we are saved THROUGH FAITH. This is what James is speaking about. It is the manual of christian living. It is precisely because we are talking about OSAS that we cannot omit the work of Christ on the cross, nor the gift. Central to the doctrine of salvation is the fact that it is work of Christ on the cross, and that the salvation is a free gift absent of any legalistic requirements to attain it. We are simply commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He was crucified, died, and was resurrected on the third day. It is through faith and we have access into the grace of God. It is the grace of God that saves us. Justification is only the initial aspect of salvation. Salvation encompasses much more than that, and when we examine all that salvation means, it becomes increasingly difficult to demonstrate from the Bible how people lose it, apart from apostasy has I mentioned before. The Grace already saved you and every soul that ever lived. But you personally must accept that offer which is given to every human being. All will give an answer to that selection. We will give account at the judgment for what we have done. A more accurate way of saying that is that salvation is universally available. The gift, from God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 No, because we are born again. We are no longer under dominion of the power of sin. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, and have been declared righteous. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we have been taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We still have a fallen human nature, and we war againt our flesh. We were redeemed from the curse of the law, not the curse of the fall. We still have to grapple with our fallible humanity. If our human nature had been eradicated, we would be incapable of sinning. Hello Shiloh Please forgiven me once again as I am confused once more. because you said that if our human nature had been eradicated we would be incapable of sinning. Can you explain what this means in relation to 1 John 3:9-10? as it says, "Whosoever is born of God doth "not" commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoseover doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." How does this text fit into the mix of things? thanks Openly Curious There are two things I see in that passage. 1. The most common understanding is that Greek reads a little different. It means that those who are born of God do not keep on sinning habitually. It does not mean that we don't fall from time to time, but that he who his born of God does not make sin the constant course of his life. I like the way the ESV renders this. It makes more sense: Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:8-9) See how differently that reads? It is much more closer to the Greek. 2. The second thing I see here is that this verse cannot really be understood in the light of our experience. The part of you that is born of God doesn't sin. Your new nature does not sin against God. No one sins in the spirit, they are always in the flesh when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Theology_Professor Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 no, I do not believe in O S A S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Are the works of the flesh to be considered the dead works of our faith in the book of James and the alive faith considered the works of faith we do in the Spirit? I don't think you are correctly relating what James said. James said, that Faith without works is dead. Jame's contention is that true faith does not exist in a mere verbal professon, but is demonstrated by corresponding actions. If so then is it what apostle Paul is talking about in Romans 6:16? "Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness" If we yield ourselves to do the works of the flesh then we belong to Satan still. But if we yield to the Spirit and do the works of God then we belong to God. These being works of faith and not "works" for our salvation here. Ultimately, you will live out what you believe. You can't help it. Salvation is a transformation, a transforming experience with Jesus Christ, not merely a change of spiritual "status." It is not a matter of simply moving you from one column to another. If you are yielding to sin, which speaks of allowing sin to be a constant course in your life, if you are yielding to it, yet claiming to be a Christian, something is wrong. It simply does not work that way. It is one thing fall in moments of weakness, but it is another thing to commit sin consistently without remorse. It also says in Romans 6:20-21--"For when ye were the servants of sin ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death." And Romans 6:22--"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life." Okay in these two passages it mentions "fruit" it first asks us when we were sinners what fruit did we have being absolutely none as we was sinners fulfilling the lusts of our flesh as a slave to sin. Then it says now being free and servants to God we have our fruit unto holiness. Is the fruit here considered to be the works of faith we do in our service to God after salvation? Being the works of the flesh being a dead faith and that would be having fruit unto death. And then the works of the Spirit being an alive faith that would be having fruit unto holiness that will end in everlasting life. It says that we shall know them by their "fruits" and that a bad tree will not bring forth good fruit and a good tree will not bring forth bad fruit. Are the bad fruits works from a dead faith being the flesh? And is the good fruits works from an alive faith being the works of the Spirit? The question being dealt with throughout the sixth chapter of Romans is whether or not justification leads Christians to indulge in sin. Paul is drawing a comparison between the fruit of serving sin is death, and the fruit of being servants of God is holiness. He sums it up this way in v. 23 , the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Death is what we deserve for being born in sin. Apart from Christ, we were under sin's dominion, and by default surrendered to it. Now, because of our salvation, because we have been born again, and made alive to God, we are no longer under sin's dominion. We have yielded ourselves to the Lord, and are now servants of righteousness (justification) the fruit of which is holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewA Posted October 17, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 469 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/21/1967 Share Posted October 17, 2006 once saved always saved an invention of man or most accurately Satan. What a good little ploy of the enemy to say that we can live how we want but still get into heaven. I wonder how many souls Satan has won from fooling people into just backsliding and continuing living a Godless life based on the fact that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 17, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 17, 2006 You know there's a big difference between scratching an itch and tearing the skin off. And it's the same thing with your walk Jesus. It's one thing to stumble under the weight the cross you bear and quite a different thing to throw the cross down and walk the other way back. As Shiloh mentioned, in a moment of weakness, we may step outside the boundry of righteousness, we all do, but if we are true believers, we will repent of our blunder and ask God fo His forgiveness, because His word tells us He is faithful to His children. The Lord loves the backslider as much as He does a lost sinner,but if you are in a backslidden state when you die, or when He appears to gather the saints, IMO, you will miss the boat. Once you have committed your life to serve Jesus, He's the one to serve. If you think you can serve yourself by yielding to some evil temptation, then you have broken your covenant with Him and it's your next move not the Lords. He did His bit on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2006 Perseverance of the Saints as taught by Calvin teaches: ... that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God's power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere to the end have been truly born again (Grudem's Sytematic Theology p. 788) This is very different than OSAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 once saved always saved an invention of man or most accurately Satan. What a good little ploy of the enemy to say that we can live how we want but still get into heaven. I wonder how many souls Satan has won from fooling people into just backsliding and continuing living a Godless life based on the fact that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I drink and I have faith in Christ. I do not repent of my drinking as it is not a sin; in fact I drink wine in Church. But you see what happens when we start appointing ourselves the judge of someone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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