Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh,

Wrong. Grace makes salvation available for everyone, but not everyone is saved. Faith is the avenue by which we enter into grace. Grace must be received before a person is saved.

Grace SAVED everyone. And Grace works with our faith to save our souls. We don't need to enter Grace. It is a given no matter how you look at it. It is the infavored mercy of God to all men. All men would receive, even the special Grace which believers recieve except they deny it.

Where do you find in scripture that grace is received, especially before faith.

It is not the means of achieving salvation but the evidence of salvation already in existance in the heart. In the Kingdom of God there is pattern.

Salvation is a journey. It is a life long journey of being conformed. It is a life long journey of remaining IN Christ. We possess salvation upon repentance and baptism and join His Kingdom. It is held in a sacred trust by God, that upon the end, IF we have been faithful, we SHALL inherit the promise. I Pet 1:4-5. Read it carefully.

Grace is what we are saved by, what we receieve by faith.

Yes, all men were saved by Grace. Part of the Gift of Christ to man is faith. All men recieve faith. It is what we do with the seed that matters. See the parable of the talents.

You are essentially trying to rewiite the Bible to fit your man-based false doctrine of salvation.

You couldn't prove that statement if you tried. It has been the faith of the ages, it is the universal Gospel, once given for all from the beginning, documented in every century many times over and has been consistant for 2000 years. No man has yet been able to change it. I don't think man will ever be successful either.

A downpayment is a guarantee.

Yes, and it is held by God. You gave a downpayment that He would hold that promise for you. You better keep your end of it. You renege on the covenantal agreement, downpayment is forfeited. Why would it be any different. Why do you think the term is used?

1 Pet 1:5 says that we are kept by God's power (not by our own works).

Why always stop at the key words. We are kept by God's power, how? THOUGH OUR FAITH. It is all about OUR faith. How is our faith exhibited and strengthened, by works. Faith equals works. There is nothing in scripture that will change that point.

What is actually being said is that the Holy Spirit in us, not our salvation, is the earnest. This is confirmed by 2 Cor. 1:22. Our salvation is not a downpayment.

Salvation is not even in the picture. It is faith, OUR faith that is the downpayment.

It is not kept in order to keep you living right, but it is promise based upon God 's character and operations. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is proof that God is sincere, and the Holy Spirit is the seal, the security of the fullness of the promised inheritance to come. Please note that the Holy Spirit is both a seal and an earnest. The word for sealed in the Greek, sphrag

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh,

Wrong. A former alcholoic can espcape the corruption of alcholoism without becoming a Christian. Anyone change their habits, and even become religious and leave their former lifeystyle.

Are we actually speaking of someone who is IN Christ or just some unbelievers who might make some personal improvements, a change in lifestyle?

The question is can an alcoholic be a christian without attempting to make a change in his lifestyle. That is the real question.

False teachers, deceivers are liars, and even by your own standards, one cannot be a liar and Christian. Since the context begins with a discussion of false teachers, then it is not Christians that are being discussed.

You are so absolutely correct, it boggles my mind you don't see the obvious. They were at one time believers. Most false teachers throughout history have come from within. They were former believers. Paul warned against them. He warned of them from without, but saved his strongest instruction warning for those within.

An unconverted, reformed sinner, will often return to their vices when the pressures of life and the temptations become too much to bear. There is nothing oymoronic about that. It is just truth.

It called falling from Grace. They move from being a believer and fall to what they were before, unbelievers. An unbeliever cannot fall, fall to what? Deeper unbelief. Why would that make any difference. Unbelief is unbelief.

Your whole explanation misses the entire meaning of the text. It is about believers ,speaking to believers. There is only one way to go other than improvement of faith, is to fall from faith. We are not even speaking about unbelievers, they are not even in the picture, except that is what they (believers) fell to(unbelief).

[Thaddaeus]

Primed Minister,

The difference was not merely sincere repentance. There's nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas was ever a believer.

There are several statements to the fact that Judas was a believer. It is a very essential ingredient in understanding of what constitutes a believer and that the status can and does change. As much as the prodigal son is a prime example.

Yet when looked at closely, Judas was much more than a just believer. He was a disciple. John 12:4. So, what are the facts.

Mark 3:13-15, 19, and Luke 9:1 repeats All twelve apostles were given special powers, which included having the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly puts Judas into this special group. Then in Luke 10:1 we have the commissioning of the 70. They also had the same special powers and if you will check vs 20 they had their names written in Heaven. Could this be the Book of Life?

Also, Jesus quite clearly stated that there are only two kinds of people. Sheep and goats. There is no gray area here. You are of one or the other. These represent the saved and the lost. We already know that Judas possessed the power to cast out demons. To do so, one must be of the Sheep, of Christ. For we also know that Satan cannot cast out Satan. Mark 3:23.

Further proof that Judas was indeed a disciple is shown to us in Acts 1:17 by Peter's words, "He was numbered among us". Mark 4:10-11 Judas understood the mysteries of the Kingdom. Clearly, Judas is numbered among those who knew and tasted of the kingdom and will be held to a higher standard than those who never knew the Kingdom, II Peter 2:21

Then, we know also that Judas was a traitor. Luke 6:16. Can one be a traitor, in this case from the Lord, without having been with or in the Lord? Judas committed treason against the Lord by siding with the enemy. He knew the truth yet he held it down and went against it. Judas was trusted with a unique ministry and he had a unique choice. He departed or fell from that ministry.

John 6:66 also tells us of other disciples that chose not to walk with Him no more. Disciples are not unsaved or heathens, they are specially called believers.

The warnings for apostasy are for Christians, not the unsaved. The unsaved have nothing from which to apostatize. The warning against apostasy is for those the OSAS proponents call, "saved". Many will apostasize and become traitors in the last days. I Tim 4:1.

Peter was completely saved. He was bought and owned by the Father. Nothing of the sort was ever revealed to Judas.

As the Father owns all human beings. None were lost, including Judas. The problem you are placing all of salvation on the wrong aspect of salvation. We are not addressing the Gift. It is not up for discussion. It is an historical fact, of which man had nothing to do with making it happen. However, we are speaking of the offer given to every human being. The offer given to all because God desires that all men be saved, that all come to the knowledge of Him and believe.

As far as he was concerned the walk with Christ was over. It was Jesus (after crucifixion) that came back to him.

and aren't we most fortunate for that great mercy. He seeks those that wander off, those that become weak and brings them back. But the fact of the matter is that they wondered off. God cannot force man to follow. He can bring Him back again and again, but man is free to do his own will. He can resist God's mercy, love and Grace.

[Guest Primed Minister]

Primed Minister,

The difference was not merely sincere repentance. There's nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas was ever a believer.

There are several statements to the fact that Judas was a believer. It is a very essential ingredient in understanding of what constitutes a believer and that the status can and does change. As much as the prodigal son is a prime example.

Yet when looked at closely, Judas was much more than a just believer. He was a disciple. John 12:4. So, what are the facts.

Mark 3:13-15, 19, and Luke 9:1 repeats All twelve apostles were given special powers, which included having the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly puts Judas into this special group. Then in Luke 10:1 we have the commissioning of the 70. They also had the same special powers and if you will check vs 20 they had their names written in Heaven. Could this be the Book of Life?

Also, Jesus quite clearly stated that there are only two kinds of people. Sheep and goats. There is no gray area here. You are of one or the other. These represent the saved and the lost. We already know that Judas possessed the power to cast out demons. To do so, one must be of the Sheep, of Christ. For we also know that Satan cannot cast out Satan. Mark 3:23.

Further proof that Judas was indeed a disciple is shown to us in Acts 1:17 by Peter's words, "He was numbered among us". Mark 4:10-11 Judas understood the mysteries of the Kingdom. Clearly, Judas is numbered among those who knew and tasted of the kingdom and will be held to a higher standard than those who never knew the Kingdom, II Peter 2:21

Then, we know also that Judas was a traitor. Luke 6:16. Can one be a traitor, in this case from the Lord, without having been with or in the Lord? Judas committed treason against the Lord by siding with the enemy. He knew the truth yet he held it down and went against it. Judas was trusted with a unique ministry and he had a unique choice. He departed or fell from that ministry.

John 6:66 also tells us of other disciples that chose not to walk with Him no more. Disciples are not unsaved or heathens, they are specially called believers.

The warnings for apostasy are for Christians, not the unsaved. The unsaved have nothing from which to apostatize. The warning against apostasy is for those the OSAS proponents call, "saved". Many will apostasize and become traitors in the last days. I Tim 4:1.

Thaddaeus,

There are of course, as you now many arguments in regards to apostacy and Judas Iscariot. As far as Judas Iscariot, there's nothing clear cut in scriptture that indicates Judas was ever saved (genuine believer, believed the revelation of Jesus as the Son of God). Luke 10:20 and Mark 4:10-11 may be the closest, but the Apostle Paul himself wrote/spoke to the various churches identifying them as believers knowing that wolves in sheep's clothing were among them, thus being also recipients of his message. Judas was noted as being a devil and was termed 'the son of perdition', a dishonour given only to him and the anti-christ. In reference to those that casted out demons in Jesus name, the phrase used in Matthew in regards to those instructed to depart on Judgement Day was "I never knew you". In Acts 1:25, the statement was made that Judas fell from apostleship, not salvation. Yes he did have a part in the ministry, and was counted among them, but let's look at 1 John 218-19.

"Little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

They went out from us, but they were not of us, they would of continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us".

All indications in scripture pointed towards unbelief as far as Judas was concerned.

[Guest Primed Minister]

"As far as he was concerned the walk with Christ was over. It was Jesus (after crucifixion) that came back to him."

and aren't we most fortunate for that great mercy. He seeks those that wander off, those that become weak and brings them back. But the fact of the matter is that they wondered off. God cannot force man to follow. He can bring Him back again and again, but man is free to do his own will. He can resist God's mercy, love and Grace.

It's still pretty interesting how persistant God will react towards one who is owned by him.

Consider, the man in just about one of the worst case scenarios in 1 Corinthians 5. Paul's instruction indeed was to have him removed from fellowship. However if God has to allow the devil to physically destroy one of His own as a tool for that person to be saved, then so be it. The man may of had a very short time span of free will, but God will not withhold chastisement of a child of His. Chastisement, by the way, doesn't seem to be a subject discussed much.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh,

QUOTE

Wrong. A former alcholoic can espcape the corruption of alcholoism without becoming a Christian. Anyone change their habits, and even become religious and leave their former lifeystyle.

Are we actually speaking of someone who is IN Christ or just some unbelievers who might make some personal improvements, a change in lifestyle?

QUOTE

False teachers, deceivers are liars, and even by your own standards, one cannot be a liar and Christian. Since the context begins with a discussion of false teachers, then it is not Christians that are being discussed.

You are so absolutely correct, it boggles my mind you don't see the obvious. They were at one time believers. Most false teachers throughout history have come from within. They were former believers. Paul warned against them. He warned of them from without, but saved his strongest instruction warning for those within.

That is where we disagree on interpretation of that passage from Peter. I see the false teachers as not being Christians to begin with. The reason is that Peter says that a dog always returns to its vomit. He uses that a metaphor for the sinner who returns to his sin. The metaphor that Peter uses does not accord with one who was transformed, but one who was unconverted returning to his old ways. He is still a sinner, and just like the dog who cannot help but act like a dog, the sinner cannot help but act like a sinner. A sinner who simply reforms his behavior to emulate "religion," cannot, and will not maintain that facade forever. He has no anchor, no root. When times of trial and tribulation comes, his religious facade is exposed for what it is.

As for whether or not the false prophets were once believers or not, your assertion that they were, has no foundation. It is up to you to provide the foundation, and demonstrate that THIS passage is specifically referring to false teachers who are former believers. If you cannot, then the only position left is the default position, that is, that we are not talking about fallen Christians but of false teachers who have infiltrated the flock, and are posing as Christians.

The question is can an alcoholic be a christian without attempting to make a change in his lifestyle. That is the real question.

That is the litmus test of Christianity I have been speaking of. If a person is a new creation, if they have had a transforming experience with Jesus Christ, they don't want the old habits. They have a new heart, with a new set of desires. That is the part of salvation that people in your camp tend to overlook. The "new creation" experience precludes a person from running back into sin. The true Christian hates sin as much as God does. The fact that we have so many professing Christians living in sin is not evidence of being backslidden, it is evidence of a false profession. There are a lot of people who play church on Sunday, but live like the devil all during the week, and they are going to VERY surprised on the other side of the grave. I personally feel (and I cannot judge anyone) that there are much, much fewer Christians in the world than we think.

I think n where you and I differ, is that I don't believe a true Christian will abandon the Lord for the pleasure of sin. I believe that those who profess Christ, but live in sin are not Christians, and most likely never were. I do not believe that a person can be a Christian and enjoy sin.

An unconverted, reformed sinner, will often return to their vices when the pressures of life and the temptations become too much to bear. There is nothing oymoronic about that. It is just truth.

It called falling from Grace. They move from being a believer and fall to what they were before, unbelievers. An unbeliever cannot fall, fall to what? Deeper unbelief. Why would that make any difference. Unbelief is unbelief.

Your whole explanation misses the entire meaning of the text. It is about believers ,speaking to believers. There is only one way to go other than improvement of faith, is to fall from faith. We are not even speaking about unbelievers, they are not even in the picture, except that is what they (believers) fell to(unbelief).

Actually "falling from grace" has nothing to do with salvation. It is ironic that you would use this term, because Paul used "fallen from grace" to refer to the Galatians who felt their works determined their eternal destiny. "Fallen from grace" is not used by Paul to refer to those living in fornication, adultery, or drunkenness, etc. He uses that term to describe the Galatians who had come to believe that they had to follow Judaism, and actually convert to the Jewish religion in order to be saved. These people were the epitome of those who believed that works determined their eternal fate. Jesus was not enough for them, they had to keep the law in order to maintain salvation, and it was to those who were trying to be saved by their works that Paul said, "Ye are fallen from Grace." Notice how it is used:

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(Galatians 5:4)

These were people trying to be justified by the law in addition to believing in Jesus. These were not fornicators and adulterers. These were "law keepers" who were trying to please God in their own misguided way by keeping the law, by doing good works, thinking that they were insuring their salvation. By trying to be saved by their works, they had fallen from grace.

[HAZARD]

No! I do not believe in once saved, always saved and heres why.

Judas is actually a classic example of once saved then lost if I ever saw one. There are many more such examples as Judas in the Scriptures. I have discussed this with several prominant board administrators and board founders and also many ministers, and to my surprise many fail to understand this despite the Scriptures plainly showing that a saved person who returnes to sin is lost unless they repent and return to Christ.

Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST.

Some cite John 6:64-70, but this passage does not say that Judas had at all times been a devil and unsaved. Jesus, in this Scripture was speaking of "some" of His disciples that believed not, and who should betray Him. The first part of this passage refers to the "some" that did not believe and does not include Judas. For after they had left Jesus JUDAS WAS STILL WITH THE TWELVE! whom Jesus asked, "Will ye also go away"???? See how easy it is to come to unsubstanciated conclusions!!! We must search the Scriptures like a bloodhound on the scent trail. Only the last part of this statement refers to Judas. Jesus knew who wdid not believe and He also knew who would betray Him. He did not say that Judas did not believe, nor that he was a devil from the beginning and therefore not a saved man.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off.

It was not until the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. And it was not untill the last supper that the devil entered into his mind and became united in the same crime. Two days before the passover the devil put it into the heart of Judas to go top Christs enemies and betray Him. (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke away from christ AND SAUGHT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BETRAY HIM. Judas was sorry for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as Peter was when he cursed God and denied Christ and fled like a coward at his test. But being of the disposition to do so Judas brooded over his sin and eventually yielded to satan to commit suicide. Judas then is a specific example of a New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace, but who lost this favour and went to Hell because of sin (Matt. 25:24 Acts 1:16-25).

Its this simple to understand. One cannot loose something we do not have! Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2).

To deny Judas was once a saved man who lost his salvation is to deny Scripture and also deny Jesus Christs own statemens regarding Judas. Jesus also acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom HE HAD LOST. Jesus Christ could not have LOST JUDAS HAD JUDAS NOT BEEN SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.! Judas had eternal life as much as the other apostles including Peter wo also denied Christ but he bacame "lost" and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

Not only were saved individuals warned to repent if they returned to sin, but entire churches were commanded by Jesus to repent or be lost. Many in the seven churches in Rev. 2-3 who WERE FALLEN from grace were repuired to repent and do their first works or else cut off in sin and be lost. Jesus was not a teacher of once in grace, or unconditional security always in grace and secure. He kept rebuking, warning, and commanding Christians to meet certain conditions if they were to be saved.

The Church at Ephesus, once in God's favour and grace at one time or it could not have fallen as indicated by Jesus Christ saying to it, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. "Remember therefore FROM WHENCE THOU ART FALLEN, [there it is, the entire church had fallen from grace], AND REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of its place, [and again Jesus warns] except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5). One losing his first love loses God, as is clear from 1 John 4:7-8 which shows that if one does not have love he does not have God. Anyone who does not have God or love, does not have grace. Having fallen from all of this, the church at Ephesus was ORDERED TO REPENT and do its first works, or have their candlestick removed, which means THE WHOLE CHURCH would be removed, for the candlestick represents the church (Rev. 1:20).

The church, completly destroyed for centuries, apparently did not return and do the first works again. As is the casewith any backslider, the latter end is worse that the beginning (Luke 11:24-26; 2 Peter 2:20-22). Christ demanded other churches to "repent" of idolatry, of comitting fornication, and adultery (Rev. 2:14-15, 19-24; 3:19), and He urged them to be on fire for God again, or be spewed out of "my mouth" (Rev. 3:15-16).

These and many other Scriptural, New Testament examples which have been given, and many more which can be shown plainly state that eternal life can be lost.

"And the times of this ignorance God WINKED AT; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:27-30). God does turn a blind eye to genuine mistakes. But if one deliberately backslides, and does not repent, as clearly shown by Scripture, one is lost, until one comes again to repentance.

Haz.

[Smalcald]

I believe in the amazing ability of human beings to be self-delusional about many things, including if they really have faith or not.

[Guest shiloh357]

To use Judas as an example of a saved person who was lost, is absurd, because the Bible never portrays him that way. First of all, Judas was a thief, and this is reported in John 12:6, long after Jesus referred to Judas as a "devil." According to John, Jesus knew from the beginning who did and did not believe on Him. Jesus knew from the start what sort of man Judas was.

Secondly, the disciples having the power to cast out demons does mean that any of them they were saved, anymore than doing any great feat for God in our day, automatically means you are a Christian. There will be many who stand before the Lord, according to Jesus, pleading for their lives and recounting the many mighty things they did in His Name, including casting out demons, and Jesus will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." So to use casting out demons as a necessary mark of being saved, simply does not work.

There is NO evidence in the words or character of Judas anywhere in the gospels that He was a righteous man. Every mention of him is negative.

Judas Iscariot. Judas is the only one of the twelve who who is mentioned with what appears to be a surname. Why is this? Iscariot in Hebrew it would be pronounced Iskari, a reference to the Sakarri, a bunch of wild revolutionaries. It is believed that the group of Jews who died at Masada were the Sakarri. The word sakarri means "assassins." These were not nice people, but very militant. It is possible that Iscariot indicates the kind of man Judas was. It would not have been out of character for Jesus to choose such a man to be His disciple. Jesus chose Matthew, a tax collector who worked for the Romans, and the Simon a member of the Zealots who hated, in particular their fellow Jews, like Matthew who worked for the Romans. I bet Jesus paired Simon and Matthew when they were sent out to heal and cast out demons.

I just don't see Judas as a saved person, simply because the evidence from the Scriptures, even the Scriptures you provided Hazard simply do not support the notion he was. Even sinners can do exploits in the flesh, all the while thinking they are Christians.

[HAZARD]

Hi Dave. Sorry, but I disagree.

Read these Scriptures again. If they do not state that Judas was once saved, then the Bible is full of errors.

Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) "Yea, mine own farmiliar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat my of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" (Psalms 41:9).

Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

His Name was written in the book of life! "For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man, my equal, my guide, and my friend" (Psalm 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST.

JUDAS, BY TRANSGRESSION FELL (Acts 1:15-25) The apostle Peter stated: "Men and bretheren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus" (Acts 1:16); "For he was numbered with us, AND HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY" (Acts 1:17). The Words Peter mentioned that David spoke of were (Psalms 41:9 and 55:12-13).

The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off.

Jesus Christ Himself spoke these words to the Father: Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Jesus gave Judas eternal life just as He gave the other apostles eternal life.

"While I was with them in the world I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of purdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). Jesus said here that he LOST Judas. Jesus could not loose someone He did not have, and someone could not loose eternal life if they never had it to loose. All Judas had to do after betraying Jesus was to repent, just as Peter repented after betraying Jesus three times.

Judas never was a devil from the beginning. There is no such statement in the Bible that he was a devil from the beginning. He was a 'devil" or an adversary against Christ toward the latter part of His ministry and this is all the Bible does say about the question (Luke 6:13; John 6:70).

Many disciples of Jesus went back into sin and were lost for they followed Him "no more" (Read john 6:66). To argue that these people were not saved does not disprove the plain fact that they were "disciples" and had eternal life up to the time they went back (Hebrews 12:26-39). If they went back, then they had something to go back from. They had something that caused them to follow Jesus in His persucutions. They were like the class in Luke 8:13 who "recieved the word with joy . . . and for a while believed, and in time of temptation fall away." To believe in Jesus for a while bring eternal life and makes one a son of God (John 1;12; 1 John 5:1). Even false security teachers make one act of faith all that man must ever do to be saved eternally. So they, above all should believethat these disciples that believed for a while had eternal life at one time.

Now Jesus also called Peter "Satan" but that doesnt make Peter a devil from the beginning. "But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23). Peter grabbed hold of Christ and tried to convince Him not to go to the cross. Peter rebuked Christ and Christ knew it was Satan working through Peter, (Matt. 16:22-23).

Judas was to have his habitation desolate AND BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING (Psalsm 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20). "For it is written in the book of psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take." He was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Psalms 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13;18 and Acts 1:16-25). These statements prove Judas was once chosen by God as a genuin apostle. He was then once a true believer, a saved man, and one divinely empowered for service and equal in every sense tothe others, a called preacher, a destroyer of Satans works, an obedient man, a sheep, a man filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his "Father." Untill, JUDAS, BY TRANSGRESSION FELL (Acts 1:15-25). He fell by comitting sin, by betraying Jesus just as Peter and others had done. But he never repented. He brooded over his sin and comitted suicide. Judas had a moral fall and sin caused it. The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25) and if men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe some, they would show some consistency and honesty regarding the Word of God, and what happened to Judas. God is not the author of sin. He did not creat a man destined to be lost forever, a man who was unsaveable regardless of Jesus's sacrifice. God wants all men to come to repentance and salvation.

Haz.

Edited October 24, 2006 by HAZARD