Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Smalcald]

larryt,

I am not sure what to make of your statement above. Are you saying that all mankind will be saved and no one will be cast into the lake of fire? Just looking for clarification.

The clarification is embodied right in the statement I made. Being saved and cast into the lake of fire are two different aspects of salvation as well. You are convoluting them. The same with your question below. You are speaking of two distinct, separate aspects of salvation.

And I believe that these verses do bear on the issue of OSAS. If we contribute anything to the work of Jesus Christ we can say that we could loose our salvation. On the other hand if He has done everything for us there is nothing that can thwart His accomplishing our salvation because He has done all things well.

The verses have nothing directly to do with them. They bear solely on the work of Christ on the Cross. Man HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORK OF THE CROSS. Very simple. Man had nothing to do with initiating it, which is what the texts are saying that prompted this exchange. Man cannot change it, add to it, subtract from it, nor even deny it. It has been accomplished.

However, your personal salvation, the salvation of your soul is an ongoing event in your life. It is the response you are making to the call of Christ in this world. A call that He can only make because He redeemed, reconciled, justified all of mankind to God. He overcame the fall, reversed the fall. Mankind is saved from the fall.

OSAS ONLY deals with the call, the response, the salvation of our souls. It does not deal with the Work of Christ on the Cross. They are not one and the same.

In a way that is a different topic though. How does faith work in our lives. Do we create our own faith or is our faith created by the Holy Spirit? Do we have good in us before we believed, and thus that good in us, helped us "make a decision for Christ" versus others who are not as good as us and thus don't make that decision?

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

Hope I am not burdensome. I really don't understand exactly what you meant by your first statement. Let me ask it this way?

Are you saying that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world no one will suffer eternally in the lake of fire no matter whether they repent or not? Is everyone that ever lived going to be taken to heaven?

Not being burdensome in the least.

Let me explain it a bit differently so that you can see the whole picture.

First the fall and salvation are related. That may seem obvious, but most explanations do not have these two events aligned.

Now, Adam sinned and as a result, as God promised, he died. It was a physical death that he died. He became mortal. Man was not created to be mortal, but eternal and in union with God. Adam was in union, communion with God before he sinned and before he fell.

So the fall is the interjection in man's existance. Because of the fall, man and God could not have union or communion as it would always end in death.

How to bring man back to life? It is Christ in His Incarnation, taking on our human natures, our fallen natures and restored them by raising them to life, immortality. Mankind was redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right with God through Christ. Now God could once again have union, a spiritual communion with man, beginning even in this life. Christ overcame the fall so that man could regain what was lost in the fall, communion and union.

This is called the salvation of mankind. As in Adam, so In Christ. God showed mercy upon all and saved all from the fall. He desired none be lost, but this loss is death, destruction, the judgement against Adam.

At this point man as an individual is not yet saved. This is where the demarcation line is drawn. God desires all men to be saved, but God created man free and in His Image. Thus God restored this freedom. Redeemed mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

By accepting this Work of Christ, by faith, (justification) we by repentance and baptism enter into a personal covenant with God. It is this covenent that is entered by faith, or believing IN Christ, that we must keep constant and enduing to the end. This is the fulfillment of our created purpose to work with God in this created order.

That is why the context will always show if it is speaking of redemption or the salvation of ones soul. The whole goal of God in the whole plan of salvation is the salvation of individual man. He desires all be saved and come to a knowledge of Him. To live a live IN and Through Christ. But that choice was made possible by Chirst overcoming the fall, the judgement against mankind by Adam. He restored us back to the ability to have or choose union and communion with God.

This whole latter part addresses the area of OSAS. This is why OSAS is such a false teaching because it attempts to put it under the work of Christ when that is totally irrelevant within the correct understanding of the Gospel as it has always been taught.

I hope this helps to clarify your thinking. If not, fire away with the questions.

[Thaddaeus]

Smalcald,

In a way that is a different topic though. How does faith work in our lives. Do we create our own faith or is our faith created by the Holy Spirit? Do we have good in us before we believed, and thus that good in us, helped us "make a decision for Christ" versus others who are not as good as us and thus don't make that decision?

OSAS is all about just how that faith works, what it is, and how we get it. It has nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross directly, but indirectly.

Because God, through Christ, redeemed the world, saved the world. Sent His only Begotten Son to be the Savior of the world, that man could even believe. He could have before, but it would not have continued into eternity since all men die. Death would have been the end of man as he was created, body and soul united and in union with God. That is considered the whole and complete human being.

God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh. He saved all from the fall, so He could offer them the promise of eternal life with Him. All men will live eternally because of Christ's work on the cross, but the place where they will spend eternity is left up to man. It is man responding freely to the universal call of God to all men to repent. All men are called, all men are drawn, all men are taught by the Father. The question is, are all men learning? Are all believing?

All men were given the Gift of faith. It is part of this Work of Christ on the Cross to make man acceptable again to God. There is no inherent good or bad in man. We are free to choose our own path. We are free. Christ died for all men in order to free them all from the bondage to death and sin.

This is the question of OSAS which is quite false scripturally. Inevitably the proponents will argue against the work of Christ on the Cross, when it actually has nothing to do with the work itself, but Christ's offer of salvation as a result of the Work on the Cross.

[larryt]

larryt,

Hope I am not burdensome. I really don't understand exactly what you meant by your first statement. Let me ask it this way?

Are you saying that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world no one will suffer eternally in the lake of fire no matter whether they repent or not? Is everyone that ever lived going to be taken to heaven?

Not being burdensome in the least.

Let me explain it a bit differently so that you can see the whole picture.

First the fall and salvation are related. That may seem obvious, but most explanations do not have these two events aligned.

Now, Adam sinned and as a result, as God promised, he died. It was a physical death that he died. He became mortal. Man was not created to be mortal, but eternal and in union with God. Adam was in union, communion with God before he sinned and before he fell.

So the fall is the interjection in man's existance. Because of the fall, man and God could not have union or communion as it would always end in death.

How to bring man back to life? It is Christ in His Incarnation, taking on our human natures, our fallen natures and restored them by raising them to life, immortality. Mankind was redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right with God through Christ. Now God could once again have union, a spiritual communion with man, beginning even in this life. Christ overcame the fall so that man could regain what was lost in the fall, communion and union.

This is called the salvation of mankind. As in Adam, so In Christ. God showed mercy upon all and saved all from the fall. He desired none be lost, but this loss is death, destruction, the judgement against Adam.

At this point man as an individual is not yet saved. This is where the demarcation line is drawn. God desires all men to be saved, but God created man free and in His Image. Thus God restored this freedom. Redeemed mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

By accepting this Work of Christ, by faith, (justification) we by repentance and baptism enter into a personal covenant with God. It is this covenent that is entered by faith, or believing IN Christ, that we must keep constant and enduing to the end. This is the fulfillment of our created purpose to work with God in this created order.

That is why the context will always show if it is speaking of redemption or the salvation of ones soul. The whole goal of God in the whole plan of salvation is the salvation of individual man. He desires all be saved and come to a knowledge of Him. To live a live IN and Through Christ. But that choice was made possible by Chirst overcoming the fall, the judgement against mankind by Adam. He restored us back to the ability to have or choose union and communion with God.

This whole latter part addresses the area of OSAS. This is why OSAS is such a false teaching because it attempts to put it under the work of Christ when that is totally irrelevant within the correct understanding of the Gospel as it has always been taught.

I hope this helps to clarify your thinking. If not, fire away with the questions.

Hi Th.

In one sense you are saying that OSAS is false teaching and in the other everybody goes to heaven anyway. My question to you was not vague and ambiguous. Why can you not just answer with a simple yes or no?

LT

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

In one sense you are saying that OSAS is false teaching and in the other everybody goes to heaven anyway. My question to you was not vague and ambiguous. Why can you not just answer with a simple yes or no?

The direct answer to the above is Yes, and NO.

This is the third time I am saying the same thing. You just keep asking the same question without understanding what I stated twice.

So here it is the fourth time. All of mankind was saved from the fall.

This in no shape or form means all men go to heaven. That is the choice each person makes by faith and through faith.

Now, does that help?

[larryt]

larryt,

In one sense you are saying that OSAS is false teaching and in the other everybody goes to heaven anyway. My question to you was not vague and ambiguous. Why can you not just answer with a simple yes or no?

The direct answer to the above is Yes, and NO.

This is the third time I am saying the same thing. You just keep asking the same question without understanding what I stated twice.

So here it is the fourth time. All of mankind was saved from the fall.

This in no shape or form means all men go to heaven. That is the choice each person makes by faith and through faith.

Now, does that help?

Thank you Thad.,

I understand your position now. There is a heresy that says the everyone and everything makes it to heaven in the end, even satan. I wasn't sure that you fit that category at least by your most recent post.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

Thank you Thad.,

I understand your position now. There is a heresy that says the everyone and everything makes it to heaven in the end, even satan. I wasn't sure that you fit that category at least by your most recent post.

What I don't understand is why you would not have understood that from both of the much longer explanations, when I stated what I did, JUST SO THAT YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND the difference.

They were both very explicit in that very difference.

[larryt]

larryt,

Thank you Thad.,

I understand your position now. There is a heresy that says the everyone and everything makes it to heaven in the end, even satan. I wasn't sure that you fit that category at least by your most recent post.

What I don't understand is why you would not have understood that from both of the much longer explanations, when I stated what I did, JUST SO THAT YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND the difference.

They were both very explicit in that very difference.

Hi Thad,

The following phrase really was what lead me to believe that you might be involved in the above mentioned heresy.

Being saved and cast into the lake of fire are two different aspects of salvation as well.

I don't see being saved and cast into the lake of fire as 2 aspects of salvation in any way shape or form.

I also don't believe that Jesus Christ died for every person that ever lived. There were many that were already on their way to eternal torment. Jesus didn't die for them. He died for the elect's sake.

LT

[Arthur Durnan]

One more time. I LOVE John 3:16! "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should one day perish, having received only temporal life." If one loses it, pray tell, WHAT did one receive in the FIRST instance? And how many times can one "lose" it again? Anyways, praise God for John 3:1-7 where Jesus said, "Ye must be born again...and again...and again." Amen indeed: everlasting salvation as a token on a chessboard!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

I don't see being saved and cast into the lake of fire as 2 aspects of salvation in any way shape or form.

They are if you are equating being saved as referring to the Work of Christ on the Cross and the lake of fire to the denial or rejection of Christ's offer of salvation as a result of His saving mercy of mankind. They are not one and the same as your next statement atests.

I also don't believe that Jesus Christ died for every person that ever lived.

that is where you, I and scripture do not agree. Christ of necessity at it is worded and proclaimed died for mankind. He saved mankind from the judgement of Adam. He saved mankind from death. There is not a single text that refutes this understanding in Scripture. There are just too many texts that state it explicity versus none that refute it.

There were many that were already on their way to eternal torment

Like who?

There cannot be hell or torment as you put it unless Christ did in fact redeem mankind. If He in fact did not correct the fall, then we all are still under the curse of Adam and none of us will be saved in any shape or form. We all still will end in death. Meaning, the end of any semblance of a human being as we were created to be.