Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[freedfromsin]

Hello cardcaptor,

Let me deal with this one passage that you gave;

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die

This is a VERY goood passage to prove the point in 1John; A person for a season looks right with God. Then they turn away to sin. They prove that they were never saved. It agrees with 1john. No loss of salvation here.

[Benobi1]

The question asked is " DO YOU BELIEVE IN ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED?"

my answer is NOPE....but you guys are right this is a debate that never changes in fact they have gotten down right nasty. Because of that I will just say..No, I do not believe in that for many reasons all of which ARE scriptural.

And with that said I think I will just sit back and watch the bullets fly.

could you please tell me where i would like to read it for myself????

[Ovedya]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

How do you know that?

What if someone is saved once, choosed to repent and ask forgiveness, but later backslides and never comes back to Christ? Will they still be saved? I don't think so.

We aren't locked into salvation.....we still have free will. God will not let go of us, but we can let go of him and harden our hearts not to hear the Holyspirit convicting us of our sin.

We still need to confess and repent, right?

We aren't locked into our salvation? If that's the case than Christ's blood is not as effective as the Bible says it is, is it?

[Ovedya]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

Ever heard of apostates? They lose big time.

The term "apostate" refers to someone who has "fallen away." The word in the Greek is "Parapito." The only time it is used in the New Testament is in Hebrews 6:6, in direct reference to those who engage in the act of laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works - in other words, the initial act of repentance.

In terms of the issue of this topic, those that are in opposition to OSAS would logically have to follow the pattern of apostasy, according to Hebrews 6.

[Ovedya]

Here is an example of the mind of God and we know that God is the same yesturday, today, and forever -

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

These verses from Ezekiel do not apply under the new covenant, since the righteousness spoken of in Ezekiel referred to that which comes from the keeping of the law. However, Hebrews confirms that we have a better covenant and an eternal sacrifice which speaks on our behalf!

God being the same yesterday, today and forever refers to His eternal nature, which does not change. God is perfectly within His right as Creator and ruler of the universe, to change anything that He pleases, including the manner in which He justifies man. That He has does that very thing is clear in Romans 3.

The New Testement is our Christian law that was brought to us by Christ and we are commanded to obey it...

If that's the case, then we are all doomed, since both Scripture and history attest to the fact that man cannot keep the law and be considered righteous by God!

Romans 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

This proves that we are under a law today, because without a law there is no sin. If there is no sin because there is no law then how could Christ have died for my sins?

Completely wrong! Without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

Paul called the old law "The law of sin and death." (Rom. 8:2) However, this "new law" as you call it is not a law at all that one should keep and work in order to be considered righteous before God! It is the law of the spirit of life, which is in Christ Jesus. In other words, believers are freed from the old law, which is outward, and put into Christ who is the end of the law to those who believe. Now, in Christ we experience the inner working, conviction, and transformation of the Spirit. Under the new covenant all of our life and work are through the inner working of the Spirit, not the outward obedience to any law or perceived law.

[freedfromsin]

Hello acrdcaptor,

you wrote;

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is another great scripture to prove what 1John says. The Hebrew passage is so very good I am glad thhat you brought it up.

The letter of hebrews is titled that way because the writer is writing to Hebrews, (jews). The letter has baciclly three purposes. One is to get the Jew who it totally un-informed about messiah to see the truth and repent. Another is for the fence setter. He has heard and believes, but has not surrendered to Jesus perhaps because of fear of being cut off. The last type of person it is dealing with is the Jew who has heard, everything there is and still rejects. Most likely out of stuborness.

This last person is left with a strong warning. The passage states this;

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;.

This passage is not dealing with an individual who comes to Christ and falls away. Notice it uses the word "those". The passage is dealing with Jews. It is speaking of a particular group of jews. It is those Jews who have been made aware (enlihghtened) of the Messiah.. It is those Jews who have had some type of tase of the heavenly gift. (notice they do not eat of it, just tase it). They were mmade partakers of the Holy Ghost as a people. Again this is not about an individual. They have tased the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. This has happened many times as God dellivered the Jews from many things. Just look at the exodus.

Now with all this revelation that they had and if they still reject messiah look at whhat they are told; For [it is] impossible If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

The Spirit crafted this very carefully. It isays if thhey fall away it is impossible to renew them to again to repentance. It odes not says if they fall away it is impossible to repentance. The difference is that they never repented. This is dealing with those jews who had heard and seen it all and still were rejecting messiah. The warning is that if they do thhis they can never be renewed to a point where they can come to repentance because there is nothing else to show or tell then except to crucify Jesus again.

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame

Keep in mind for those who claim thhat this is speaking about losing ones salvation, but it is not, they have to accept thhat it says it is impossible to renew them again. in other words if you could llose it you cannnot get it back. However this is not the case. The passage is saying whhat i have said and it not speaking about a true Christian.

[Ovedya]

We aren't locked into our salvation? If that's the case than Christ's blood is not as effective as the Bible says it is, is it?

It is when you use it.

1 John 1:9-10 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The "If's" in these sentances make them conditional.

This is called "arguing from a vacuum" You cannot prove the existence of something in the Scriptures by the absence of that thing.

Of course, if I fall into a sin and go to God for forgiveness he will forgive, but if I think that as a Christian I can't sin then I will walk my life in sin never going to God for forgiveness.

To many people stop course of Christianity at being born again. We are supposed to continue in the faith ridding ourselves of the lusts of the flesh and repenting of sin. Even as a Christian we can still sin. I can still tell a lie, think dirty thoughts, etc. Where we are liable is what we do with that. Do we let the sins reign in our bodies or do we crucify the effections with the lusts.

What you cannot do in the Christian life is to lose your salvation by sinning. Otherwise you insult the cross by making Christ's sacrifice the same as those of the old covenant. You repeat the process of crucifying Christ each time you ask for God's salvation. Paul, in Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us that it is impossible to renew oneself again unto repentance.

Even Paul talked about the war in his members -

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

That law in his members were the lusts of his flesh wanting out. We are to fight these lusts everyday, but under the teaching of OSAS people have been led to believe that they don't need to repent and live their lives filled with sin thinking that they are okay before God.

That is absolutely untrue of those who teach OSAS. I challenge you to find as much as one orthodox teaching that prmotes willfull sin.

We are locked into our salvation if we stay right before God free of sin.

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

What happens is that after we are washed clean we dirty ourselves up again with sin without repentance.

Again, arguing from a vacuum. In context this verses is speaking of what Christ will do in the church, not what the church will do. Verse 26, "that He [Christ] might sanctify her." The church does not sanctify itself! It cannot sanctify itself by any means.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Context: False teachers Verse 1: "...just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

There is no reason to believe that any false teacher or prophet was ever saved to begin with. Surely there will be a dispensational punishment for those who entangle other believers with false teachings. However, the Bible never tells us that salvation is lost.

[Ovedya]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

And this is a fact just because you said it? Well, we can just end the discussion now, it has all been settled. Freedfromsin said it, so it is so.

Amen!

[Ovedya]

Oveyda,

Christ did sanctify the church but it is up to us to keep it clean by keeping sin out of it.

The verses does not say that Christ already sanctified the church. It says, "That He might sanctify her..." The church cannot be presented to Christ as a pure bride until the Spirit's transformation work is completed in her. This is an organic transformation by the Spirit, not a legal transaction by the superficial lawkeeping of the members.

The only way to be sinless is to gain more of He who is without sin.

[Ovedya]

However, the Bible never tells us that salvation is lost.

You are sorely wrong -

Hebrews 10:26-30 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

These are those who have been sanctified and only the saved are sanctified or is your answer that this only talking about the Hebrews?

2 John 1:8-9 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I can become a Christian, but if I don't abide in the doctrine of Christ then I don't have God and I will not recieve my reward.

The reward is separate from eternal life, which the believer has gained the moment God regenerates Him (1 Pet. 1:3; 23)

Second, regarding Hebrews 10: Verses 25 and 26 are couched solidly in the concepts which the writer of Hebrews is trying to convey to the Hebrew church. In other words, the writer of Hebrews is obviously attempting to show the supremacy of the death of Christ above those of the temple, and he is, in fact, making direct inferences to Christ being the reality of all the sacrifices of the temple. Futhermore, the writer of Hebrews is attempting to correct the errors of the Hebrew believers. One of those errors happens to be that of shrinking back to the old practices, to the old ways of Judaism, which was a pretty big stumbling block for the Jewish believers in the early church.

The entire chapter of Hebrews 10 essentially deals with two things: First, the issue of Christ's death being a type of, and being in supremacy to, the sacrifices (cf. vv. 4-10, 14-18). Secondly, the writer deals with the issue of Jewish believers shrinking back to the old ways of Judaism (cf. vv. 23, 39) . If I were to sum this chapter up, I would say that the writer is essentially saying, "The old ways of sacrificing for sin have been done away with through the blood of Jesus Christ, who is not only the reality of those sacrifices, but whose death reigns supreme to those sacrifices. Whereas, through the old sacrifices we could not dare to appraoch the throne of God, now through the blood of Christ we can enter into the holiest of holies boldly. Furthermore, for those who have shruken back to the old ways, there is no longer a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sin, for those sacrifices have been done away with. Therefore, in shrinking back to the old ways, there is no provision for the forgiveness of sins in the blood of animals. So when you shrink back to the old ways, you are considering Christ's blood of no effect in comparison with the blood of bulls and goats, and in that way you will find yourself in ruin."

So, with regard to verse 25, the writer is discussing primarilly the issue of abandoning the gathering together in prayer in favor of shrinking back to Judaism. And in verse 26 the writer begins to talk about the reason: Because there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins.

Think about it: You've been raised from birth to believe that the Laws of Moses were the only way to gain God's favor and to be considered righteous before Him. Your whole life you've believed that animals sacrifices were the only thing that appeased God's wrath upon you and upon your people. Then along comes a New Way which says essentially, this one sacrifice is sufficient for all time, and has been offered up once for the remission of all of your sins. You now have to put aside all those practices by which you formerly believed you were righteous before God's eyes and, by faith, receive the one sacrifice which is eternal. Wouldn't you have some doubts about the efficacy of the blood of Christ? I think about the times which I heard of men and women who were diligent and faithful to the religion of Catholicism in their youth, then received the grace of God to not rely on those religious practices any longer. For a while they were so dynamically freed from those practices. But later some of them shrunk back because they had been so institutionalized by those rituals. I believe the real lesson to be learned from this chapter is the freedom which Christ afforded through His wonderful and vicarious death, from religion and from ritualistic service to God. I don't think it has anything to do with the loss of salvation at all.