Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Oh Hamburgers!]

I guess I don't think it makes sense to me that you can be "saved" at one point in your life, and then feel that you can do whatever you want, because you are "always saved". What if someone was saved at age 20, but then at age 30 decided to go on a killing spree, and top it off by commiting suicide? Does that mean they are still saved, and will still get into heaven?

I don't know, somehow I doubt it.

What about the priests who spent countless years of their lives commited to God, and preaching his word, but were found to have been commiting homosexual acts with others? Do you throw away all of the good they had done by basing their entire lives off of the bad?

Another example:

Say that there is a person out there who never heard of Christianity, yet did as Jesus taught without knowing it? For example, this person always put others before them, loved men and women, and treated everyone with respect.

They were never "saved", but they lived an fufilling and happy life in the eyes of the Christian community. Is this person going to hell because they never were "saved"?

These are examples which could easily be very real situations, yet I don't really know how I would go about answering them. It really depends on how far you take the notion of "being saved", and exactly how you define it.

[Guest lnj]

I guess I don't think it makes sense to me that you can be "saved" at one point in your life, and then feel that you can do whatever you want, because you are "always saved". What if someone was saved at age 20, but then at age 30 decided to go on a killing spree, and top it off by commiting suicide? Does that mean they are still saved, and will still get into heaven?

I don't know, somehow I doubt it.

:

That behaviour shows he wasn't SAVED in the first instance. By the FRUITS you shall KNOW them.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

I guess I don't think it makes sense to me that you can be "saved" at one point in your life, and then feel that you can do whatever you want, because you are "always saved". What if someone was saved at age 20, but then at age 30 decided to go on a killing spree, and top it off by commiting suicide? Does that mean they are still saved, and will still get into heaven?

I don't know, somehow I doubt it.

Can an action separate us from God? God sees all sin the same...to God it wasn't murders it was a bunch of sins topped with one final sin.....yet this doesn't mean he was not saved.....he may have had a psychotic break in which case it wouldn't be his fault.

I am not talking about a phychotic break, I am talking about someone who was saved at age 20, and practiced the word of God for 10 years before deciding to end his life and the lives of others... please don't twist my example around. You can argue that "oh, then he wasn't REALLY saved!", but then that implies that you must never sin after the fact to be "truly" saved. According that "God sees all sin the same" as you just said, then someone who lies countless times on his/her deathbed is regarded exactly the same as someone who would commit a double-homicide and a suicide... and THAT seems ridiculous to me.

Another example:

Say that there is a person out there who never heard of Christianity, yet did as Jesus taught without knowing it? For example, this person always put others before them, loved men and women, and treated everyone with respect.

They were never "saved", but they lived an fufilling and happy life in the eyes of the Christian community. Is this person going to hell because they never were "saved"?

No one hasn't heard of Jesus, all this stuff about how we haven't spread it to the whole world is wrong..they have heard of it...Romans (or Hebrews) makes it clear in chapter 1 that men can be without excuse because God is evident in nature...because you can see through nature that some higher power must have created it you should then exert a will to know this higher power...The Life tells us in the Gospels that if one should seek one should find....so that person on that island will find if they truly seek....otherwise they simply ignored it which is their fault.

Oh PLEASE. I'm sorry if I sound insulting, I am just amazed you could think something like this. I don't see how you can assume that out of the BILLIONS of people in our world, 100% of them have heard of Christianity, and are "simply ignoring it" if they aren't Christian. That is just a false statement. I have been taking a Southeastern Asia History class, and along the mountainous regions of Indonisia and Burma there are thousands of indiginous people who live away from the rest of society, growing rice and using slash and burn forestry practices as a means of survival. If they even have HEARD of Christianity (which I somewhat doubt), I am confidant they know little more about it than the fact that it believes in one God, a Holy Spirit, and a man.

The same situation comes up ALL around the world.. People learn about their religion from their family, and learn little if anything about other religions. If you grew up in a Budhist family, you were probably taught that other religions EXIST, but how could you assume that that same Budhist child "knows" about Christianity in the same intimite way that you know about it?

How did you come to learn about Christianity? I would bet the majority of people on these boards learned about Chrisianity from their families. How much did you learn about Islam when you were growing up? Or Budhism? Or any other religions???

No, I think it is a safe bet to say that there are hundreds of millions of people out there who have not heard of Christianity to an extent of which to be able to become a "saved" Christian, and by no means are they intentionally "ignoring God".

Christ died to save us from the law so that We would not have to worry about sinning! We don't have to worry about sinning because it's taken care of...I think Christ is sad when we come to him and start talking about our sins all the time, instead of thanking for the fact that we don't have to worry about it....Jesus wanted it so that it would all be taken care of...if you sin and your truly a fTW(followers of THE WAY) member, than God will never ever hold that sin against you because your clear....now this doesn't mean go off and sin because "everything is permissible, BUT not everything is beneficial." Paul tells us this so that we know that should we decide to sin (which a true fTW wouldn't want to do in the first place) it's all taken care of...If we lose out on the battle to our flesh, yet have faith in Jesus Christ than it's all taken care of....This love is unimaginable, and uncontainable....I cannot hold in my joy over this love this uncomprehensible love that God has showered down and people, and that's why I don't get it when people don't believe because Gods love is to great to go to waste...

Blessing,

VC.

This is my biggest issue of the "once saved, always saved" mentality. What it implies is that if you are a true follower of the way, then nothing you do on Earth today matters. If you are a true follower of the way, you can act in ways that are against the teachings of Jesus, since you are already saved. If you are already saved, then what is stopping everyone from just commiting suicide today?? If we know that Christ died for our sins, and if we believe in Him and know that He saved us, and if you already said that God views all sins equally here, and won't judge us based on a few actions, then heck, I might as well just kill myself right now and go to heaven!!! What is stopping people from being absolute horrors to other's around the world, murdering, raping, commiting adultery, and offing themselves, if they believe that Jesus saved them, and that they will ascend into heaven at the end???

We are taught to follow in Jesus' footsteps. If that doesn't help or hurt our chances in getting into heaven, then why on earth should we be good to others? I think the easier road would be to do everything selfishly throughout life.

Again, if you try to make the arguement "people who sin like that aren't TRULY saved", then does that mean ANYONE who sins isn't TRULY saved, if as you said God views all sins equally???

Things just don't line up.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

I am not talking about a phychotic break, I am talking about someone who was saved at age 20, and practiced the word of God for 10 years before deciding to end his life and the lives of others... please don't twist my example around. You can argue that "oh, then he wasn't REALLY saved!", but then that implies that you must never sin after the fact to be "truly" saved. According that "God sees all sin the same" as you just said, then someone who lies countless times on his/her deathbed is regarded exactly the same as someone who would commit a double-homicide and a suicide... and THAT seems ridiculous to me.

THis is what I want YOU to do...read the part of your quote that I bolded over and over....it sounds rediculous to you, but to God it makes sense, why should God concern himself with stuff like which sin is greater? To God it is all the same...we as humans may not be able to understand it, but God does, and that's the way things are.

See, you are associating you viewpoint directly with God's... there is a problem there. We cannot assume we understand God's plans completely, and that our answer is therefore directly corrolated with exactly what God wants... to do that is to assume a self-righteous air; that we "get" God, when in fact none of us do in all aspects. How do YOU know that you are on God's side, and I am not? What if I said I was on God's side, and you weren't? You probably wouldn't agree with it, therefore I don't agree with what you are saying. I don't think to lie is the same as to murder, in the eyes of God. I don't and I never could.

Oh PLEASE. I'm sorry if I sound insulting, I am just amazed you could think something like this. I don't see how you can assume that out of the BILLIONS of people in our world, 100% of them have heard of Christianity, and are "simply ignoring it" if they aren't Christian. That is just a false statement. I have been taking a Southeastern Asia History class, and along the mountainous regions of Indonisia and Burma there are thousands of indiginous people who live away from the rest of society, growing rice and using slash and burn forestry practices as a means of survival. If they even have HEARD of Christianity (which I somewhat doubt), I am confidant they know little more about it than the fact that it believes in one God, a Holy Spirit, and a man.

The same situation comes up ALL around the world.. People learn about their religion from their family, and learn little if anything about other religions. If you grew up in a Budhist family, you were probably taught that other religions EXIST, but how could you assume that that same Budhist child "knows" about Christianity in the same intimite way that you know about it?

How did you come to learn about Christianity? I would bet the majority of people on these boards learned about Chrisianity from their families. How much did you learn about Islam when you were growing up? Or Budhism? Or any other religions???

No, I think it is a safe bet to say that there are hundreds of millions of people out there who have not heard of Christianity to an extent of which to be able to become a "saved" Christian, and by no means are they intentionally "ignoring God".

God is evident in nature which is why we have religions.God is evident in life...if you seek what is evident so you shall find according to God...if someone in the parts of the world that you mentioned, see's nature and thinks "WOW something must have created this..." and than do not seek to know that something they are choosing to ignore God.

I think that most people DO have an understanding of a greater power, but that doesn't necessarily mean they accept Christianity. Almost all of the major religions in the world have a deity of sorts; if anything I think that makes our fundamental beliefs very similar to those of other religions: The notion of a higher power watching over us.

Nothing is...Paul mentions in Phillipians 2 that to live is Christ and to die is gain...he talks about his own personal struggle in Phillipians 2 about how he wants to just kill himself and end it all....he talk about when speaking of Freedom in christ in his many books, that he wants to sin sin sin because it won't matter, but he doesn't killl himself or sin sin sin because he know's that such things are unbeneficial regardless of whether or not it matters...if you want a purpose and a part of God's ultimate plan than certainly you want to be as close to perfect as you can get and remain living...but if you don't care about your purpose and what God has planned for you than it would be just dandy to quit and go to heaven.

So you are telling me that if someone really wanted to go to heaven, they could just commit suicide and *poof* there they go? Do you truly believe this? I mean, it would imply that you don't care about your purpose on earth, but you still could do this and still be in heaven? Sounds to me like cheating through the trials of life and taking the easy path. I just can't see the reasoning behind this.

[EricH]

So you are telling me that if someone really wanted to go to heaven, they could just commit suicide and *poof* there they go? Do you truly believe this? I mean, it would imply that you don't care about your purpose on earth, but you still could do this and still be in heaven? Sounds to me like cheating through the trials of life and taking the easy path. I just can't see the reasoning behind this.

In order to answer this question one needs to successfuly answer the question, "What is the basis of our salvation?". If our salvation is based on our caring about our "purpose here on earth", then you are correct. But my understnding is that our salvation is not based on any merit on our part, but on the completed work of Jesus on the cross. From a salvific perspective, when we receive the work the Jesus did on our behalf, God no longer looks at our deeds, but on the righteousness of Jesus.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

So you are telling me that if someone really wanted to go to heaven, they could just commit suicide and *poof* there they go? Do you truly believe this? I mean, it would imply that you don't care about your purpose on earth, but you still could do this and still be in heaven? Sounds to me like cheating through the trials of life and taking the easy path. I just can't see the reasoning behind this.

In order to answer this question one needs to successfuly answer the question, "What is the basis of our salvation?". If our salvation is based on our caring about our "purpose here on earth", then you are correct. But my understnding is that our salvation is not based on any merit on our part, but on the completed work of Jesus on the cross. From a salvific perspective, when we receive the work the Jesus did on our behalf, God no longer looks at our deeds, but on the righteousness of Jesus.

So based upon your understanding, that means that a mass murderer and rapist who believes from a salvific perspective he was saved by the completed work of Jesus on the cross will go to heaven, while an atheist who practiced exactly what Jesus preached without knowing it and without believing he/she was saved by the completed work of Jesus on the cross, would go to hell. Is that correct?

[Karen C.]

I guess I don't think it makes sense to me that you can be "saved" at one point in your life, and then feel that you can do whatever you want, because you are "always saved". What if someone was saved at age 20, but then at age 30 decided to go on a killing spree, and top it off by commiting suicide? Does that mean they are still saved, and will still get into heaven?

I don't know, somehow I doubt it.

What about the priests who spent countless years of their lives commited to God, and preaching his word, but were found to have been commiting homosexual acts with others? Do you throw away all of the good they had done by basing their entire lives off of the bad?

Another example:

Say that there is a person out there who never heard of Christianity, yet did as Jesus taught without knowing it? For example, this person always put others before them, loved men and women, and treated everyone with respect.

They were never "saved", but they lived an fufilling and happy life in the eyes of the Christian community. Is this person going to hell because they never were "saved"?

These are examples which could easily be very real situations, yet I don't really know how I would go about answering them. It really depends on how far you take the notion of "being saved", and exactly how you define it.

Eze 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

God has a lot to say about people involved in sin. From what I gather here and Ez 33 is that we are to WARN those who are committing evil. That does not mean to so called "judge them". Judging them would be to tell them there is no HOPE and they are going to HELL. Telling them they are in DANGER is OUR CHRISTIAN responsibility.

The reason most Christians wont go to anyone who is involved in sin is cause it is more fun to gossip about them than to be grieved for them and go to them with a true concern for their salvation and walk with the LORD!

Blessings, Karen

Eze 33:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

Eze 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Eze 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins [be] upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.

Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

Eze 33:15 [if] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

God has a lot to say about people involved in sin. From what I gather here and Ez 33 is that we are to WARN those who are committing evil. That does not mean to so called "judge them". Judging them would be to tell them there is no HOPE and they are going to HELL. Telling them they are in DANGER is OUR CHRISTIAN responsibility.

The reason most Christians wont go to anyone who is involved in sin is cause it is more fun to gossip about them than to be grieved for them and go to them with a true concern for their salvation and walk with the LORD!

Blessings, Karen

When someone's salvation is concerned, I hardly think it is a good idea to concern one's self with the "fun of gossip" instead of trying to save them.

I really do appreciate your answer, but I am still confused as to where people see themselves when it comes to salvation.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

So here I am seeing the notion that as long as you tell someone they are commiting wickedness, their soul will still be delivered regardless of wether they continue sinning or not. This confuses me; it doesn't really make any sense. So as long as someone is told they are commiting sin, they are saved?? This is much different from this:

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

So here, if someone does good, and then does bad, they shall die in their sin, with all their good being forgotten. However if you warn the righteous man that he is sinning, and he stops sinning, he shall live again.

...

whaaaat??? This is making me even more confused

Everything seems to be contradicting everything else.

[EricH]

So you are telling me that if someone really wanted to go to heaven, they could just commit suicide and *poof* there they go? Do you truly believe this? I mean, it would imply that you don't care about your purpose on earth, but you still could do this and still be in heaven? Sounds to me like cheating through the trials of life and taking the easy path. I just can't see the reasoning behind this.

In order to answer this question one needs to successfuly answer the question, "What is the basis of our salvation?". If our salvation is based on our caring about our "purpose here on earth", then you are correct. But my understnding is that our salvation is not based on any merit on our part, but on the completed work of Jesus on the cross. From a salvific perspective, when we receive the work the Jesus did on our behalf, God no longer looks at our deeds, but on the righteousness of Jesus.

So based upon your understanding, that means that a mass murderer and rapist who believes from a salvific perspective he was saved by the completed work of Jesus on the cross will go to heaven, while an atheist who practiced exactly what Jesus preached without knowing it and without believing he/she was saved by the completed work of Jesus on the cross, would go to hell. Is that correct?

Here is what the scriptures have to say:

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation-- created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 HCSB

You should be able to answer your own question from this passage. What does it say to you? At the end of the day, it does not matter one bit what I say about it. It is what God says that counts.

[Guest lnj]

Suppose he had a tumor in his brain which inhibited the lobe which helps us to determine right from wrong and gives us control over our actions....he then would not be responsible for his crime legally or spiritually.

Well I was only commenting on a SANE mass murderer professing to be a Born Again Christian..........Think again.

It is NOT rocket science to know IF the person was mentally damaged, OF COURSE the Grace of our Savior is BIG ENOUGH for the mental challenges that dog mankind.

Many a Born Again Believer has suffered from severe depression and committed suicide when they weren't mentally coherent. Do you think God would send them into eternal darkness for what they did when they were at their lowest, mentally, emotionally and Spritually? Of course NOT. Our God IS ABOVE mere human frailties and trivialness..............