Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't believe I read any where in your post where you gave a biblical definition of SIN. Of course I could have overlooked it in that case forgive me. There are two biblical definitions of Sin that I personally know of in the scripture that is given. I do not believe I ignored either of them.

Allow me to clarify. I simply pointed out the necessary distinction between the power of SIN and the SINS we commit.

Yeah I get how you were using the word SIN in a singular sense and realize we were born into sin. I understand our condition before salvation being lost without God strangers who were alienated from God. On our way to hell lost and undone in need of mercy and without hope.

So talk to me about (plural, the things we do & things we do that are in rebellion to the Will of God) I already know of the work of the blood in correlation to this.

But what you are saying here is in relation to after salvation in how we walk before the Lord and the things we do that are in rebellion to the Will of God?

What I am saying is the whole "past, present and future sins" debate is pointless. Everybody wants to argue about whether it was only our past sins that were covered on the cross or not, and such silly arguments really miss the point of what was accomplished on the cross. The work of the cross changes what we are. It was not our past, present or future sins that caused us to go to hell. Those things are the out-working of our old nature. It was our old nature, our old position, under law and living under the dominion of sin that was sending us to hell, and keeping us separated from God. We are born into that condition by default. The cross of Christ deals strikes at the root of the problem.

Forgiveness of sins is something that will continue everyday. We all commit sins, and we need the blood of Jesus everyday in order to cleanse our conscious. The blood of Jesus, like the grace of God, is a daily appropriation. That is why I say that I refuse to argue over which sins are covered, and which are not. It is a shallow, pointless debate.

Now if you believe that Sin does not have dominion over you once you are saved then how does one rebel against the Will of God? If it is not by works we do after we have recieved salvation by faith. Or do we do good deeds all the time and never bad deeds after salvation?

We contiinue to wrestle against the flesh. It is the constant battle with the flesh shows us that we are still saved. We will continue commit sins, because all of us fall from time to time, albeit in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord. All of have moments of weakness where do those things that are in violation of God's express Will. John says that anyone who says otherwise, is a liar. That is why we have the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus is for us, not for God. Confession of sin, is for our benefit. It is by confessing our sin, and running to God when we sin, that our conscious is cleansed, and the enemy is unable to heap condemnation upon us.

So I'll go with your thoughts here that 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 is talking about judgment for rewards for a moment and our works will be tried by fire.

Just what "works" are these being tried by fire?

Both good and bad. What is not burned up in the fire, and remains as gold will determine the degree of our reward.

Okay I know that this is the judgment seat of Christ here in this passage as it says so within the text even. And I realize and believe it is "Only" for Christians. I do not believe that this is a judgment to see if you are saved or not because you would be at this judgment if you were not a believer to start with right. But it is more than a judgment of what degree of your reward for service as a Christian.

No, it is not.

But it is a judgment as the scripture says forthrightly even that it is a judgment where we as Christians "WILL GIVE ACCOUNT" of the deeds we have done since we have been a christian whether they are good deeds or bad deeds.

Yes, and that is accomplished by our deeds being tried by fire. All of our deeds will be manifest, and tried by fire, thus accounted for. It does not mean that we have to stand before the Lord and give him grocery list of everything we have done.

That is making us personally responsible for how we lived once we became a believer. now is this "works" of salvation "No it isn't" (or) is it the "works" of faith we will give account of at this judgment seat of Christ? Yes it is

Yes it should make us more responsible, and sober as to how we live. It should make us take stock of our life and adjust our behavior, to come in line with the Word of God. However, this is not question of not knowing what God is going to do with us, after we die. I may not know the degree of my reward, that remains to be seen; I DO know that the question of my eternal destiny has been answered, and it has been answered once for all. The question never has to come up again. I, and the Lord has settled that account, and I have absolutely no fear of death, nor do I have look over my shoulder to see if I have done enough, or been good enough to be saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

There are sinful behaviors that the Bible says will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Notice that it does not say, "shall not inherit the kingdom of God unless they are saved." It says they shall not inherit the kingdom of God period. Those who deny this are going contrary to scripture.

The problem with using the above passage is that it does not speak to the issue. 1 Cor. 6:9,10 occurs within the context of a discussion Paul is having concerning Christians taking their disputes with one another before wordly, secular magistrates. Paul sees a problem with Christians allowing secular sinful judges making decisions and settling disputes that exist between believers. This is especially poignant for the Corinthinians believers because they are living in a culture where immorality is a virtue. Paul is saying that fornicators and adulterers, idolators, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and therefore do not have any business dealing in the affairs of the Church, which by constrast, will one day judge angels. The Church should settle its own disputes according the Word of God.

[Guest man]

all you have to do is believe...

In Christ

CJ

James 2:19 You believe there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble.

If the belief in God was the only thing required to enter that narrow gate, He would have said so.

But He didn't.

He said, "believe and do this...believe and do that...believe and follow this set of rules...believe and follow the commandments of Christ"

Simply believing in God will not get you into heaven. If that is all that is required, Christ died for nothing. Every word He ever spoke means nothing. The bible is just a book, not unlike any book you find in a library or those gossip rags that everyone loves so much.

There is more to our walk then simply believing.

The devil and his followers believe...what happens to them? Do they get a free ride?

There are countless multitudes that believe but ignore the teachings of Christ. Do they also get a free ride?

And why did Christ teach if there was nothing to learn? Why didn't He just come out and say "believe" ?

No...there's more to it then belief. If you think otherwise...you are believing a lie..

[Thaddaeus]

Neopatriarch,

See, even demons are believers. But saving faith naturally produces good works.

Yes, James is comparing those that initially believe but never act upon that belief. This is the problem with the devil. There are no works that give evidence of that faith or belief. This is also clealry shown in the parable of the sower. The very first seeds heard the word, those that fell on the path. They never acted, thus never took root. When we believe, repentance is the first requirement of that faith. Without repentance your faith is dead, non-existant, worthless. It did not justify you. Surely you cannot be saved through that faith.

The devil believes but never becomes a believer.

The whole book of James is a testament to true faith because it gives evidence through works. Thus the phrase, we are saved THROUGH faith. It is the works which God uses, that we show our faith with, which will permit Him to increase that faith, and grow to maturity. Thus if we have no faith, or become faithless, unfaithful we no longer are and can be IN Christ and being saved. If we are saved through faith, we surely cannot be also saved through unfaithfulness.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Thaddaeus

[Guest shiloh357]

Thus if we have no faith, or become faithless, unfaithful we no longer are and can be IN Christ and being saved. If we are saved through faith, we surely cannot be also saved through unfaithfulness.

The problem is that it is not our faith that saves us, in and of it's self. We are saved by God's grace. None of us are faithful one 100% of the time. We all have times of doubt and disbelief. Everything time we sin, we are not operating, nor living in faith.

Our salvation is not depended upon us, meeting certain conditions; it is wholly a work of the Lord. If salvation is only there when we are faithful, then the grace of God is worthless. The beauty of grace is that it is extended to us because of our shortcomings. Imagine, what use would an car insurance policy be, if they ONLY covered you when you didn't cause a fender bender? That would defeat the purpose of insurance. If the grace of God is only extended to us, to keep us when we are living right, and have all of our ducks in a row, then it has no intrinsic value for the Christian, and there is nothing for us trust in.

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh357,

The problem is that it is not our faith that saves us. We are saved by God's grace. None of us are faithful one 100% of the time. We all have times of doubt and disbelief. Everything time we sin, we are not operating, nor living in faith.

Then what does this verse mean: Eph 2:8. It does not say grace alone, but by grace through faith. Rom 4:16. Rom 3:27. We are not even justified by grace, but by faith, Rom 5:1.

Our salvation is not depended upon us, meeting certain conditions; it is wholly a work of the Lord. If salvation is only there when we are faithful, then the grace of God is worthless.

Then what does this text mean?

Luke 12:46,47, The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master's will and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Based on what you have stated, believers, even those appointed with unbelievers will still be saved. Does an unbeliever know God's will?

Or this one: 1 Timothy 3:6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Is a novice mean unbeliever or a new believer, an infant believer?

Or this one: 1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

So, if we cast off our first faith, we have condemnation, but we are still saved?

The beauty of grace is that it is extended to us because of our shortcomings. Imagine, what use would an car insurance policy be, if they ONLY covered you when you didn't cause a fender bender? That would defeat the purpose of insurance. If the grace of God is only extended to us, to keep us when we are living right, and have all of our ducks in a row, then it has no intrinsic value for the Christian, and there is nothing for us trust in.

So why all the commands. They are useless and irrelevant for the believer. So who are they referring to, for example:

John.15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love If ye love me, keep my commandments. So even if we do not keep His commandments and thus don't love Him, we shall be saved?

Who is Paul exhorting here, Unbelievers? Hebrews 3:12,13 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. So, even if this happens, we are saved?

Thus all of these exhortation are just superfluous statements just ot fill some pages in the Bible. Because if they do not really matter and we are saved in spite of them, why write them?

Edited October 15, 2006 by Thaddaeus

[Kabowd]

shiloh357,

The problem is that it is not our faith that saves us. We are saved by God's grace. None of us are faithful one 100% of the time. We all have times of doubt and disbelief. Everything time we sin, we are not operating, nor living in faith.

Then what does this verse mean: Eph 2:8. It does not say grace alone, but by grace through faith....

...and that [faith], not of ourselves, it is a GIFT FROM GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Let's not slice and dice the Scriptures please.

If faith is to blame (or lack of it) for losing salvation, then the blame must go back to God, as He is the giver of faith.

[Floatingaxe]

People lose their faith because of sin, plain and simple. They fall away because they succumb to pressure from the evil one. That is not something that is authored by God.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357,

QUOTE

The problem is that it is not our faith that saves us. We are saved by God's grace. None of us are faithful one 100% of the time. We all have times of doubt and disbelief. Everything time we sin, we are not operating, nor living in faith.

Then what does this verse mean: Eph 2:8. It does not say grace alone, but by grace through faith. Rom 4:16. Rom 3:27. but by faith, Rom 5:1.

It is not faith in and of itself, if I might clarify. It is God's grace available to all, but it is faith that appropriates it. We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. Our faith is not the element of salvation, but rather we put our faith in the element of our salvation, namely God's grace. Salvation is universally available, but only realized by those who put their trust in Christ. It is does not depend upon us, but upon God's grace. When we exercise our faith, we are not saving ourselves, we are relying on, trusting in the grace of God which saves us.

It is human pride that cannot allow it to be work of God, alone. It is human pride that wants to take credit for being good enough to have something to do with salvation. The New Covenant is not between man and the Father. The New Covenant is between the Father and Jesus. They are the guarantors of the covenant. The New Covenant was cut in the blood of Jesus, not in the blood of sinful man.

We are not even justified by grace,

Really????

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

(Romans 3:24-25)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(Titus 3:7)

Then what does this text mean?

Luke 12:46,47, The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master's will and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Based on what you have stated, believers, even those appointed with unbelievers will still be saved. Does an unbeliever know God's will?

When we compare this passage with its partner in Matt 24: 45 and following, what we see is a comparison of a faithful servant appointed by the master, and an evil servant, who is not spoken of as having appointed. This is likened unto ministers in the church today, those who have been appointed to God, and those who have taken the office to themselves and do abuse it. There have been several testimonies I have heard of pastors in churches who preached for years before finally being saved. This passages is not about believers in general, but those who are in positions of authority in the Church and who are either faithful in carrying out the Will of the Father, and those who abuse the position even at the expense of the flock. This is not a parable about two Christians, but one who is of God, and another who is not.

Or this one: 1 Timothy 3:6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Is a novice mean unbeliever or a new believer, an infant believer?

Thaddeus this is talking about the qualifications of a Bishop. The only point that Paul is making is that the Bishop should be a veteran of the faith, not a beginner, or a new Christian. He should be someone who has matured in the things of God. He is one who has proven himself in all necessary practical matters and is able and mature enough to teach. The point made in v. 6 is that a New or novice believer is more likely to be filled with pride at such an appointment, and in doing so, create pride that will foster a dangerous situation for the congregation. Falling into the condemnation of the devil is not the same as becoming "unsaved."

Or this one: 1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

So, if we cast off our first faith, we have condemnation, but we are still saved?

It is useless to just pick individual verses while plainly ignoring their context, and the line of thought of the author. You need some lessons in hermeneutics.

Paul is talking about younger widows who have remarried. They have cast off their "first faith" which means that in having remarried, they have cast off their sole fidelity to Christ since now their interests have become divided between the Lord and their husband/family. The condemnation refers to their violation of their promise. Being widowed they had appealed to the Church for relief, Paul said that they were not admit into this any widow under the age of 60, seeing that younger women were still fit to provide for themselves. Certainly younger women would also have a greater desire to become remarried, therefore to avoid the guilt of their violating their promise to remain widows and to devote themselves to prayer and other forms of ministry in exchange for financial and material relief, it was better for them not to apply at all, and and if they did, to reject them for those reasons. The condemnation spoken of, is not the same as spoken of in Romans 8:1.

So why all the commands. They are useless and irrelevant for the believer. So who are they referring to, for example:

John.15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love If ye love me, keep my commandments. So even if we do not keep His commandments and thus don't love Him, we shall be saved?

So you think commandments are given in order to keep us saved??? That is not true. Our obedience is an out-working of our salvation, not the means of procuring it. Jesus is saying the same thing in Jn 15:10. He is saying that our obedience is the indicator of our love. It is our love for him that comes from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that causes us to keep His commands. Jesus is not teaching some kind of "performance based acceptance," He is saying that our love for Him will be manifested in our obedience. We abide in His love, when we obey, which is speaking of fellowship. Disobedience will cause us to fall out of fellowship with the Lord but not out relationship. That is why we need to confess our sins on a daily basis. Not keep ourselves saved, but to keep our fellowship with Jesus unhindered.

Who is Paul exhorting here, Unbelievers? Hebrews 3:12,13 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. So, even if this happens, we are saved?

Thus all of these exhortation are just superfluous statements just ot fill some pages in the Bible. Because if they do not really matter and we are saved in spite of them, why write them?

The verses in Hebrews are speaking of apostasy, not merely falling away from the faith, and as such really do not belong in the scope of this discussion. Neither I, nor do many, believe that a person cannot apostasize from the faith. Consider though, no one simply wakes up one morning in the middle of a living, vibrant relationship with Jesus and decides to up and apostasize. There is a deep moral decline that occurs before the fullness of apostasy takes place, and so a person who finds themselves in that morass of faithlessness, and absolutely no compunction about it, wouldn't be a Christian anyway by the standards of even the anti-OSAS crowd. I have seen people walk away from the faith and apostasize, and it was never overnight, and it was clear that they wanted to head that direction and resisted every word spoken to them and every attempt by the Holy Spirit to lead them back.

Apostasy, is a different issue than really fits the context of a OSAS thread, because what many people are asserting is that your works can determine your eternal destiny, and that is just not so.

[Guest shiloh357]

Okay Shiloh,

In one place you said it was our old nature and position that was sending us to hell and then you said in the next place that we continue to struggle with sin our whole lives. Why would we continue to stuggle with sin if we have a new nature?

What I said was that we continue to struggle against our flesh. Haven't you read that it is our spirit that wars against our flesh?

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

(Galatians 5:16-17)

We are still in a fallen world, and our flesh was not eradicated. It is this constant battle that is the tell tale sign of our faith. Yes we still sin. However, the sign of a Christian is their response to the sin they find in their lives.