Hell

[billie]

Didn't he? Where was He those three days until His resurrection?

[secondeve]

Didn't he? Where was He those three days until His resurrection?

Time-travelling into the future to see the original Braodway production of Cats?

[Floatingaxe]

Juggernaut - you took it out of context... The book of Genesis is an account of the creation of the Earth - not of Hell. God does not specifiy when Hell was created. It doesn't matter when Hell was created - the fact that it exists is what matters.

When God "saw everything He created" - we have to look at the subject. What's the subject? - The creation of EARTH. So what did God see that was "GOOD"? EARTH!

There is no mention of Hell during the creation of Earth.

However, when one looks at other parts of scripture that talks about Hell being in the pit of the Earth, it's only logical to assume that Hell may have been created at the same time as the Earth. However, it is quite possible that Hell was "transplanted" after Earth's creation as well.

As far as I know, when Hell was created is not mentioned - Why Hell was created - now that's an entirely DIFFERENT story

I think you need to read Genesis again. It talks about creating the stars the moon the heavens and everything else. Before that there was a nothingness. I agree that the bible says nothing about hell ever being created so why do you believe it exists? The O/T speaks nothing about an ever burning hell. So if we don't know if hell was ever created how are we to tell why it was created? Why would a creator of the universe create such a place if he were a loving God? Do you really believe the creator of the universe derives some type of pleasure at watching people suffer eternally for not believing?

Now if we take your approach and accept the Genesis is indeed just talking about earth and mans creation then we can also assume that other universes existed prior to us and that other civilizations existed pre earth/man because the bible doesn't say it didnt.

I see your point, but the Genesis account is the Creation of all things for MAN! All the Creation we see is for us! Hell is NOT for us, but for Satan and his angels only. Problem is, when we refuse Christ, we choose Hell as our destination, for we have aligned ourselves with Satan.

Rhere was no need fopr God to ever speak of his creation of Satan's final home! It was created, in my opinion, eons before earth was in existence.

[SoulGrind]

I think you need to read Genesis again. It talks about creating the stars the moon the heavens and everything else. Before that there was a nothingness.

Yes, it does talk about the stars, the moon, the heavens, the Earth, and everything within the Earth, but there is no specific mention of Hell's creation (in the book of Geneis).

I agree that the bible says nothing about hell ever being created so why do you believe it exists?

Because the Bible is repleat with references to Hell. One does not need to know the date something was built/created to know whether it exists or not. The Biblical writings which describe Hell are satisfactory for informing the reader of Hell.

We can infer the same ideas about Heaven. We do not know when Heaven (not the heavens - stars, etc.) was created, but the Bible is very clear that it exists.

The O/T speaks nothing about an ever burning hell. So if we don't know if hell was ever created how are we to tell why it was created? Why would a creator of the universe create such a place if he were a loving God?

You sir, are quite mistaken about the OT never mentioning Hell...

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

[Deuteronomy 32:22 - KJV]

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"

[2 Samuel 22:6 - KJV]

"It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?"

[Job 11:8 - KJV]

"Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."

[Job 26:6 - KJV]

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

[Psalms 9:17 - KJV]

These are just a few example of various verses that make mention of Hell. There are MANY, MANY more.

Do you really believe the creator of the universe derives some type of pleasure at watching people suffer eternally for not believing?

Absolutly not. God derives no joy or pleasure from watching people suffer. However, God has offered us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. And because of sin, God is a "just" judge, and therefore, because He is righteous, and because He is holy, and because He is "just", the law deserves a verdict. Becuase of our sins and transgressions against God, Hell is what we deserve because God HATES sin. However, if we repent of our sins, turn from out sinful ways, and follow Christ, we receive God's forgiveness and His grace - we receive that which we do not deserve.

Now if we take your approach and accept the Genesis is indeed just talking about earth and mans creation then we can also assume that other universes existed prior to us and that other civilizations existed pre earth/man because the bible doesn't say it didnt.

And this MAY be a possibility - there are many things in the Bible that are not revealed to us. Here is the passage of scripture that sums it all up:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

[John 3:12 - KJV]

Who knows the wonders of God's kingdom that we have yet to experience and understand. Even the accounts of Heaven and Hell are still only textual representations of places we have yet to experience for ourselves.

The ultimate question isn't when they were created, but which place we're going to call home.

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[secondeve]

I see your point, but the Genesis account is the Creation of all things for MAN! All the Creation we see is for us! Hell is NOT for us, but for Satan and his angels only. Problem is, when we refuse Christ, we choose Hell as our destination, for we have aligned ourselves with Satan.

This confuses me. If we go to heaven, we do not become angels; if we go to hell, we do not become demons. Presumably, then, when and if we enter hell, we are human. Whatever this makes our allegence, it does not, Biblically speaking, change who we are, unless there is a specific passage which states otherwise. If we can go to a place, then I assume it is 'for us,' even if God would prefer we didn't go there - after all, he would have preferred that Adam and Eve didn't eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and yet it was not impossible for them to go near it or to pick the fruit. So even if God doesn't want us to go to hell, it is still possible and therefore 'for us' in that sense. If, as has been argued, God has given us free will so that we may choose to reject or accept him, then he has chosen - assuming he created everything, the laws and the way things work - that sinners will go to hell. How is hell not 'for us' in that sense? Unless the Bible specifically states that we cease to be humans and become demons after death and directly upon our entry to hell, I cannot see how the idea that hell is not 'for man' can be upheld.

Also, this is just me being a shades-of-grey pedant, but I don't see how, logically speaking, refusing Christ is synonymous with acceptance of the devil. Both refusing Christ and embracing the devil will land you in hell, yes, but the fact that I don't believe in God also means I don't believe in Satan. How can I accept, as a conscious choice, what I do not believe exists? This is like saying that because I don't like peanut butter, I must, by default, like vegimite. So essentially, what God is saying is, even if you do not actively choose to love the devil, because you cannot love or worship what you do not believe is real, I will treat you as if you believed in me but chose the other team, or as if you believed exclusively in Luficer but not me. And frankly, I don't think that's very....well, just. Even Dante has a problem with it; his hell has a more pleasant level for the virtuous pagans, but the Bible seems to say that nobody can be Switzerland. Nobody can be neutural. If you're not with us, even if you dislike our enemies or disagree with them, then you are still one of them; you are against us. Doesn't sound like justice from where I'm standing.

[SoulGrind]

This confuses me. If we go to heaven, we do not become angels; if we go to hell, we do not become demons.

You are correct, we do not become angels or demons (btw - demons ARE angels, however, they are followers of Lucifer (Satan), not of God). Angels are a different "race" (if you can call them that) of "being" from ourselves. Humans are of "flesh" angels are of "spirit".

Presumably, then, when and if we enter hell, we are human. Whatever this makes our allegence, it does not, Biblically speaking, change who we are, unless there is a specific passage which states otherwise. If we can go to a place, then I assume it is 'for us,' even if God would prefer we didn't go there - after all, he would have preferred that Adam and Eve didn't eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and yet it was not impossible for them to go near it or to pick the fruit. So even if God doesn't want us to go to hell, it is still possible and therefore 'for us' in that sense. If, as has been argued, God has given us free will so that we may choose to reject or accept him, then he has chosen - assuming he created everything, the laws and the way things work - that sinners will go to hell. How is hell not 'for us' in that sense?

You're on the right track here. God did not create Hell for man. Hell was created for Satan and his demons. However, to try to describe a broader definition of the term, Hell is the repository for all who rebell against God. Therefore, since God abhores sin, and sin is against God, and man is guilty of sin, then man deserves Hell.

Unless the Bible specifically states that we cease to be humans and become demons after death and directly upon our entry to hell, I cannot see how the idea that hell is not 'for man' can be upheld.

The Bible never states that we become angels or demons.

Also, this is just me being a shades-of-grey pedant, but I don't see how, logically speaking, refusing Christ is synonymous with acceptance of the devil.

Maybe you've heard the phrase "silence is acceptance". Therefore, if you do not speak up for Christ, you are by proxy, speaking up for the Devil. Here is a scripture passages that supports this:

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."[Matthew 12:30 - KJV]

Both refusing Christ and embracing the devil will land you in hell, yes, but the fact that I don't believe in God also means I don't believe in Satan. How can I accept, as a conscious choice, what I do not believe exists?

You can choose to "believe" that there is no such thing as grvaity. However, when you step out that 30 story building, you will soon understand the "gravity" of your situation. Unfortunately, at this point in time, it's a little too late.

This is like saying that because I don't like peanut butter, I must, by default, like vegimite.

You are comparing apples to oranges here.

You are comparing a single item against a multitude of choices. (You are comparing peanut butter to vegimite, yet you could also have ham & whole wheat, salami and cheese, or any other number of choices).

In order to compare to scripture, you must discuss opposittes on this particular subject because in scripture, there are only two choice - God/Heaven and Satan/Hell.

So essentially, what God is saying is, even if you do not actively choose to love the devil, because you cannot love or worship what you do not believe is real, I will treat you as if you believed in me but chose the other team, or as if you believed exclusively in Luficer but not me.

Yes, this is the case. However, if we think about teams - the in the realm of God, there are only two teams, God and the Devil. And every person is a team member - The good part is, WE choose the team we want to be associated with. These choices are not made for us by the team captains (God and Satan). We can also replace the word "Devil" with the word, "Wolrd". We are with God or with the World. And who does the world belong to? The devil.

Another thing to keep in mind, the Bible is repleat with "opposittes" - Good/Evil, God/Satan, Heaven/Hell. Now, if we look at the natural world, we too have tons of opposittes. In fact, we have a physics postulate (if this is the right word to use here) that states "For every action, there is an equal and oppositte reaction."

The way I look at this, if the world that we know has all these opposittes, and from what I read in the scriptures, that God plays by His own rules, then I have no choice but to accept the fact that there is a Heaven and a Hell, a God and a Satan, etc.

And frankly, I don't think that's very....well, just.

Why? Because all these "good people" are going to Hell? So what defines us as being "good"? Are we "good" by OUR standards or are we "good" by God's standards? If we are good by our standards, then sure, Hell is overkill. But according to God - there is none good. No one has kept the commandments fully. We have all told a lie. Most of us have stolen something at some point in time or another. Most people don't "love" God. Most people have looked at a person with lust - and according to scripture, lust is the same as adultery. Many people have "hated" someone. The Bible says that hatred (of another person) is the same as murder. Therefore, most of us are lieing, thieving, adulterous murderers who don't love God. That's only 5 of the 10 commandments. So by God's moral standard, we all fall short. Now, according to the Bible, God is a righteous God who abhores sin, and therefore, because of His hatred for sin, He must exercise judgement. And according to God's law, sin is punishable by death. However, it is by grace alone that we are saved - it's our acceptance of Him that saves us.

Here is another way to look at this problem: Let us assume that you comitted some heinus crime. You are standing in court before a judge. Before sentencing you, the judge asks if you have anything you'd like to say in your defense. You reply with "I'm sorry for doing the crime. I only did it once. But I pay my taxes, I take care of my children, I give to the poor, I walk the elderly lady next door across the street every day. I'm a good person. Doesn't that count for anything?" The judge will most likely reply "Yes, I agree - all those things ARE good, but regardless of this fact, you still broke the law and you must pay the fine. Therefore, you fine is $100,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 or life in prison."

Obviously you can't pay the fine - what do you think of the judge? A jerk? Maybe - but he is a judge and he must be "just" in the eyes of the law.

Now, what is someone came in at the last minute and said "I'll pay your fine" and hands the money over to the judge - PAID IN FULL.

Would you not be eternally greatful for this gift? Especially if the person sold EVERYTHING they owned to come up with the money? Would you not tell everyone about this person's great gift to you?

This is essentially what Christ did by dying on the cross - He took our sins upon Himself as attonement (payment) for our sins. The only stipulation - you must choose to follow Him (accept his payment). By not accepting, it's like telling our judge - "No, I'm sorry - I don't want this person paying my fine."

At this point, you are not for the person paying your fine - you are against them. And to someone who gave up all they had so you could be set free, that is a slap in the face and you trample their sacrifice under your feet.

Even Dante has a problem with it; his hell has a more pleasant level for the virtuous pagans, but the Bible seems to say that nobody can be Switzerland. Nobody can be neutural. If you're not with us, even if you dislike our enemies or disagree with them, then you are still one of them; you are against us. Doesn't sound like justice from where I'm standing.

Like you and I, Dante is mortal man - and Dante is examining the idea of Hell through the moral standards setup by man, not the moral standard set up by God.

Hope this helps explain the Christian viewpoint.

You do not have to follow Christianity - you do have that choice. This is your perogotive. But let me ask you this: IF, when you die, and you find out that Christianity IS TRUE, and you suddenly realize you can't go back for a "do over", how do you think you're going to feel being cast into Hell, a place of eternal torment and suffering?

The choice is yours.

One of my questions for you is this - What is it that keeps you from accepting Christianity? Do you feel there's a lack of "evidence" in support of the Biblical account? Or is it just the fact that you don't like the idea of a yes/no, black/white, right/wrong, good/evil, God/Satan doctrine?

If it's the latter argument, just remember this - there are lots of things in life we don't like (taxes, cancer, etc.) but we still have to accept the fact that they are a fact of life.

Best of luck to you.

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[secondeve]

You are correct, we do not become angels or demons (btw - demons ARE angels, however, they are followers of Lucifer (Satan), not of God). Angels are a different "race" (if you can call them that) of "being" from ourselves. Humans are of "flesh" angels are of "spirit".

I know I just wanted to keep things simple.

God did not create Hell for man. Hell was created for Satan and his demons. However, to try to describe a broader definition of the term, Hell is the repository for all who rebell against God. Therefore, since God abhores sin, and sin is against God, and man is guilty of sin, then man deserves Hell.

Still having problems, but these are just personal/moral ones. If all humans are born sinful state - if all humans are born against God - then all humans are born deserving hell. The acceptance of Christ requires an actual choice to be made, not an absence of choice, particularly if all are born sinful. This then means that children and babies who die without accepting Christ are in hell. Unless I have misunderstood your reasoning, this, to me, is unjust, because there was no occasion for choice to be made. How, therefore, is a stillborn child deserving of hell, or a toddler? Despite this, I see no provision in the Bible against children and innocents going to hell for the sin of being born human. If God knows everything, and sees everything, and is the instigator of everything - if, as many Christians say, God creates us in the womb - then God is creating children in the knowledge that they will never be able to come to Christ, because they will die in infancy, or be strangled in the womb. Where else might these children go but hell, if sin is their natural state? To me, there is no decision made by these children; they cannot possibly be deserving of eternal torment. So if God exists, and the above logic is not flawed, then he is unjust and, arguably, cruel.

Maybe you've heard the phrase "silence is acceptance". Therefore, if you do not speak up for Christ, you are by proxy, speaking up for the Devil. Here is a scripture passages that supports this:

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."[Matthew 12:30 - KJV]

Arguably, then, all it takes for someone to be a Satanist is for them not to believe in God. But we might also say that Satanism is defined by practice, i.e., but actively engaging in a set behaviour. If such a person existed who did not believe in Christ because they had never heard of the Bible, but who did not believe in any false gods, either; and who, of their own volition, regarded homosexuality as sinful, only had sex in marraige and was monogamous throughout their life, the case could be made that this person is not Satanic. And yet, they have never acknowledged God. My question is, does this person then deserve hell?

if we think about teams - the in the realm of God, there are only two teams, God and the Devil. And every person is a team member - The good part is, WE choose the team we want to be associated with. These choices are not made for us by the team captains (God and Satan). We can also replace the word "Devil" with the word, "Wolrd". We are with God or with the World. And who does the world belong to? The devil.

Another thing to keep in mind, the Bible is repleat with "opposittes" - Good/Evil, God/Satan, Heaven/Hell. Now, if we look at the natural world, we too have tons of opposittes. In fact, we have a physics postulate (if this is the right word to use here) that states "For every action, there is an equal and oppositte reaction."

The way I look at this, if the world that we know has all these opposittes, and from what I read in the scriptures, that God plays by His own rules, then I have no choice but to accept the fact that there is a Heaven and a Hell, a God and a Satan, etc.

I accept that there are oposites in the world, but not the conclusion you've drawn from this. War and peace are opposites; this does not mean it is impossible for someone to remain neutural. Day and night are oposites; this does not mean that dawn and evening do not exist. Grey areas exist. The world is not all black and white. God commands us not to kill, and yet God also commands certain Biblical figures to kill. Is this a moral grey area or a contradiction? Is killing always wrong, or is it the context of the act which defines whether or not it is evil? Is stealing always evil, even if by doing so we save the life of a child who might otherwise have died from hunger?

Why? Because all these "good people" are going to Hell? So what defines us as being "good"? Are we "good" by OUR standards or are we "good" by God's standards? If we are good by our standards, then sure, Hell is overkill. But according to God - there is none good. No one has kept the commandments fully. We have all told a lie. Most of us have stolen something at some point in time or another. Most people don't "love" God. Most people have looked at a person with lust - and according to scripture, lust is the same as adultery. Many people have "hated" someone. The Bible says that hatred (of another person) is the same as murder. Therefore, most of us are lieing, thieving, adulterous murderers who don't love God. That's only 5 of the 10 commandments. So by God's moral standard, we all fall short. Now, according to the Bible, God is a righteous God who abhores sin, and therefore, because of His hatred for sin, He must exercise judgement. And according to God's law, sin is punishable by death. However, it is by grace alone that we are saved - it's our acceptance of Him that saves us.

And that, to me, is still unjust, because the potential for salvation is inequal. By this I mean that not everyone can be saved before death. Babies cannot be saved. Prior to the spread of Christianity, people living in the Pacific or Australia or South America could not have been saved. When God gave salvation to mankind, he did so with prejudice, in that the only means of salvation was not something available to all. And this, to me, is not just.

Here is another way to look at this problem: Let us assume that you comitted some heinus crime. You are standing in court before a judge. Before sentencing you, the judge asks if you have anything you'd like to say in your defense. You reply with "I'm sorry for doing the crime. I only did it once. But I pay my taxes, I take care of my children, I give to the poor, I walk the elderly lady next door across the street every day. I'm a good person. Doesn't that count for anything?" The judge will most likely reply "Yes, I agree - all those things ARE good, but regardless of this fact, you still broke the law and you must pay the fine. Therefore, you fine is $100,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 or life in prison."

Obviously you can't pay the fine - what do you think of the judge? A jerk? Maybe - but he is a judge and he must be "just" in the eyes of the law.

Now, what is someone came in at the last minute and said "I'll pay your fine" and hands the money over to the judge - PAID IN FULL.

Would you not be eternally greatful for this gift? Especially if the person sold EVERYTHING they owned to come up with the money? Would you not tell everyone about this person's great gift to you?

This is essentially what Christ did by dying on the cross - He took our sins upon Himself as attonement (payment) for our sins. The only stipulation - you must choose to follow Him (accept his payment). By not accepting, it's like telling our judge - "No, I'm sorry - I don't want this person paying my fine."

At this point, you are not for the person paying your fine - you are against them. And to someone who gave up all they had so you could be set free, that is a slap in the face and you trample their sacrifice under your feet.

Let's look at the same example again. This time, the man has not committed a henious crime; he is up before the judge for jaywalking, perhaps, or for riding the bus without a ticket because he was running late and forgot his wallet. Assume he gives the same character reference, and that the judge hands out the same penalty: a million bucks or life imprisonment. Now assume that the same good citizen offers to pay. The accused would look at them and say, 'Why? Anyone can see that the penalty I am being offered is out of proportion to the crime I have committed. I thank you for your offer, but I would rather be a man of principle; it is the judge who is being unjust, and I would not ask any man to pay such a price for so little a thing.'

All crimes are equal in the eyes of God, and so the judge would hand down the same verdict for the henious crime and for jaywalking. Unless justice is taylored to meet the situation - unless it is flexible - it is not just. We are not talking about one case; we are talking about all.

You do not have to follow Christianity - you do have that choice. This is your perogotive. But let me ask you this: IF, when you die, and you find out that Christianity IS TRUE, and you suddenly realize you can't go back for a "do over", how do you think you're going to feel being cast into Hell, a place of eternal torment and suffering?

I will feel that God is not just. I will see babies burn alongside those who lived and died before they ever heard of Christ, and I will think that if God is all-powerful and allowed this to happen, because the means of salvation chosen by him was not attainable by all, then had I served him in life, it would have been just the same as if I had lit the fires of hell myself. If nothing in life happens that God does not will; if no place exists that God did not create; if nothing happens that God does not know; and if nothing exists that God could not overcome; and if evil still exists in this world and the next, if hell is real, then God and the Devil are one and the same, for he damns whom he will not save.

One of my questions for you is this - What is it that keeps you from accepting Christianity? Do you feel there's a lack of "evidence" in support of the Biblical account? Or is it just the fact that you don't like the idea of a yes/no, black/white, right/wrong, good/evil, God/Satan doctrine?

All of the above: lack of evidence, too many questions about the Bible/parts I think don't make sense, too much ambiguity, and I can see every day that there are grey areas in life - in human behaviour - so why, if morality is both universal and centred around human behaviour, should it not reflect the truth?

Edited October 16, 2006 by secondeve

[SoulGrind]

This is going to be a tough post to answer - so many areas to quote. But I shall do my best. ;-)

Still having problems, but these are just personal/moral ones. If all humans are born sinful state - if all humans are born against God - then all humans are born deserving hell. The acceptance of Christ requires an actual choice to be made, not an absence of choice, particularly if all are born sinful. This then means that children and babies who die without accepting Christ are in hell. Unless I have misunderstood your reasoning, this, to me, is unjust, because there was no occasion for choice to be made. How, therefore, is a stillborn child deserving of hell, or a toddler? Despite this, I see no provision in the Bible against children and innocents going to hell for the sin of being born human. If God knows everything, and sees everything, and is the instigator of everything - if, as many Christians say, God creates us in the womb - then God is creating children in the knowledge that they will never be able to come to Christ, because they will die in infancy, or be strangled in the womb. Where else might these children go but hell, if sin is their natural state? To me, there is no decision made by these children; they cannot possibly be deserving of eternal torment. So if God exists, and the above logic is not flawed, then he is unjust and, arguably, cruel.

You are right, the acceptance of choice Christ does require a choice to me made. So therefore, if you do not make a choice, you obviously have not chosen Christ, and therefore, according to Christ's own words, "If you are not for Christ, you are against Him".

Now, to the point of unborn babies and children without spiritual knowledge, or the hypothetical (though unlikely chance) of a person being born in such a remote place that no chance of the gospel could ever reach them... We have to trust in the fact that God is "all-knowing and just" and therefore, through His grace, judgement is cast aside in favor of pro life so such people may live. I do not know of any scripture to substantiate this thought directly - however, what we know of God's character - Righteousness, Holyness, Justness, and Love and Grace - I can't help but think that He would provide asylum for those such as these.

There are a couple of scriptures that lead me to believe this - while they are not in direct relation to these thoughts, it's something to ponder and inquire of somemore more learned in theology than I am. These verses I refer to are:

"...14 But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for to such belongs the Kingdom of Heaven."" - [Matthew 19:14 - BBE]

This verse tells me that Children (those who are innocent, blameless, and pure of heart are cherished by God). Yes, God does say we are born into sin, but it is also by God's grace that we are saved - so I would like to believe that God's grace would be applied here. I know this is not support directly in scripture, but I think it can be "gleaned" - like I said - someone who has been steeped in theology might do a better job at addressing this issue.

"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?" - [Matthew 6:26 - KJV]

Once again, support of this thought - God views man even more important than the animals and if God takes care of the animals, how much more will he do for us?

Arguably, then, all it takes for someone to be a Satanist is for them not to believe in God. But we might also say that Satanism is defined by practice, i.e., but actively engaging in a set behaviour. If such a person existed who did not believe in Christ because they had never heard of the Bible, but who did not believe in any false gods, either; and who, of their own volition, regarded homosexuality as sinful, only had sex in marraige and was monogamous throughout their life, the case could be made that this person is not Satanic. And yet, they have never acknowledged God. My question is, does this person then deserve hell?

I guess if we want to get blunt about it, then yes. If it's not of God, then it's of the devil.

Once again, in regards to our hypothetical person who is ignorant of such things, we have to take it on faith that God will exercise judgment and grace accordingly. We must also recall that God says he has laid it upon our hearts a knowledge of good and evil, therefore, each person born into this world, while being born of sin, has an internal, subconscience knowledge of right from wrong. Ultimately, the final decision for the fate of this person is in God's hands.

I accept that there are oposites in the world, but not the conclusion you've drawn from this. War and peace are opposites; this does not mean it is impossible for someone to remain neutural. Day and night are oposites; this does not mean that dawn and evening do not exist. Grey areas exist. The world is not all black and white. God commands us not to kill, and yet God also commands certain Biblical figures to kill. Is this a moral grey area or a contradiction? Is killing always wrong, or is it the context of the act which defines whether or not it is evil? Is stealing always evil, even if by doing so we save the life of a child who might otherwise have died from hunger?

Once again, you are correct in stating that the world is not all black and white. However, we need to keep in mind that we are not discussing a worldly viewpoint, but a spiritual viewpoint set in place by God, therefore, it is black and white. Scripture is crystal clear on the point - there's only one way into Heaven. Through repentance of sin and absolute faith in Jesus Christ.

Regarding the "moral gray" are you speak of - this is man's moral code - not God's moral code. We must be careful not to confuse the two.

Scripture states for everything there is a season. A time to live, a time to die, a time for war, a time for peace. However, we are commanded not to kill - this of course is in regards to murder - not war.

And that, to me, is still unjust, because the potential for salvation is inequal. By this I mean that not everyone can be saved before death. Babies cannot be saved. Prior to the spread of Christianity, people living in the Pacific or Australia or South America could not have been saved. When God gave salvation to mankind, he did so with prejudice, in that the only means of salvation was not something available to all. And this, to me, is not just.

Once again, we need to have faith that God will exercise justice or grace as deemed appropriate according to God's perfect law.

Let's look at the same example again. This time, the man has not committed a henious crime; he is up before the judge for jaywalking, perhaps, or for riding the bus without a ticket because he was running late and forgot his wallet. Assume he gives the same character reference, and that the judge hands out the same penalty: a million bucks or life imprisonment. Now assume that the same good citizen offers to pay. The accused would look at them and say, 'Why? Anyone can see that the penalty I am being offered is out of proportion to the crime I have committed. I thank you for your offer, but I would rather be a man of principle; it is the judge who is being unjust, and I would not ask any man to pay such a price for so little a thing.'

All crimes are equal in the eyes of God, and so the judge would hand down the same verdict for the henious crime and for jaywalking. Unless justice is taylored to meet the situation - unless it is flexible - it is not just. We are not talking about one case; we are talking about all.

The problem here is we are trying to justify the crime based on our human idea of "severity" - however, according to God, sin is sin. It's like a light bulb, it's either on or it's off. Even a light with a dimmer switch is still on or off, even if it's dim or if it's bright. God says sin is punishable by death - however, the point you keep forgetting is GRACE - you keep trying to apply man's imperfect morality to God's perfect morality. God's grace is what keeps us from paying the ultimate fine - our lives with death to reside in Hell for eternity.

And it makes no difference how "petty" we think something is. In God's perfect world - there is no crime. However, man has been seperated from God's perfect world and therefore has become "tainted" thereby giving us an altered view of morality.

I will feel that God is not just. I will see babies burn alongside those who lived and died before they ever heard of Christ, and I will think that if God is all-powerful and allowed this to happen, because the means of salvation chosen by him was not attainable by all, then had I served him in life, it would have been just the same as if I had lit the fires of hell myself. If nothing in life happens that God does not will; if no place exists that God did not create; if nothing happens that God does not know; and if nothing exists that God could not overcome; and if evil still exists in this world and the next, if hell is real, then God and the Devil are one and the same, for he damns whom he will not save.

God does not damn anyone to Hell. We damn ourselves. We have been shown the path to salvation. It's the only path. It's up to us to walk down that path. We have free will to do so. If we choose any other path than the one that has been lit before us by God, we have chosen our own fate.

And as stated before, we must have FAITH that the GRACE OF GOD will be served to those who never had a chance. The scripture does not state God will show grace and mercy upon these people, but scripture does not say God will not exhibit mercy and grace upon these individuals either. Therefore, we must look at scripture to reveal the true nature of God and realize that while God hates sin and those who do sin without reptant hearts, we must also realize He is a God of Love, of Mercy, and of GRACE.

All of the above: lack of evidence, too many questions about the Bible/parts I think don't make sense, too much ambiguity, and I can see every day that there are grey areas in life - in human behaviour - so why, if morality is both universal and centred around human behaviour, should it not reflect the truth?

Keep in mind, lack of understanding on our part does not declare falability on God's part. If God is perfect, and we are imperfect, how can we honestly measure anything by the standards we set? We cannot. Therefore, we must use the standards that God has set, and even then, we fall short due to our imperfections. Just another reason we need faith.

To me, it seems rather silly to trust in something fallable (man) when there is something so perfect (God).

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[redeemed098]

He would be with Christ in Paradise, in Christ's Kingdom, when Christ returns.

Luke 23:43

And Jesus said to him,

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 5:18

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

I certainly will not remove a comma and place it elsewhere to change the meaning of what Jesus says! That is ridiculous, and a sin to do...to try and change the Word of God to suit what someone tells me they believe? Nay, sir.

I believe what Jesus says, plainly.