Biblical Hermeneutics

[Guest shiloh357]

it is exactly the words you chose to use on me shiloh that prevents me from moving forward with your intellectual means of knowing the word of God.

What a cop out. The reason I use the word "absurd" is because you cannot point to any place on this thread where I or anyone have asserted anything close to the position you are attributing to me. You are bent upon assigning a value to what I have presented which is opposite everything I have tried to say, and even though I have repeatedly tred to explain that I am in no way saying that one must have hermeneutics to understand the Bible at all, or have a full relationship with God, etc., you continue to assign that value to me. So, as long as you continue to falsely attribute a position to me, that I, by my own testimony have denied, I will consider such assertions on your part, "absurd" and might I add, baseless and without any demonstratable foundation.

Simply stated you are telling me that how I learn contains less knowledge of God than you. I say that is baloney. To me trying to learn the word in the manner that you do..does detract from how I learn the word of God..and it detracts from the spiritual foundation of the word, for me. It doesn't make my form of learning any less than yours...

And to state that because I don't study the word by using hermeneutics leaves me without boundaries of knowledge and the ability to test when people say they come with a "word from God", is (as far as I am concerned) is an ignorant statement. The gift of discernment can equally test and I can read, in fact I have very GOOD comprehension skills. So, to say that I can't take a word that someone states is from God..go to scripture and see if it is in alignment without hermeneutics is ludicrous....

It is rubbish like the above that demonstrates that you really don't have a grasp on it at all. The only way you have of criticizing anything I have presented is to morph it into a personal attack on you. That is completely dishonest, and misrepresents my motives. I never said that you lacked boundaries, and I never said that the way in which you learn contains less knowledge. This thread was not started as an attack on the way anyone else studies the Bible, or any method of interpretation other that what is presented here. It was started for those who are interested in learning about hermeneutics, and applying the principles therein. You came to this thread and start complaining about hermeneutics, and then when I respond as to why I see hermeneutics as valid and valuable, and even needed in some areas, you try to turn this thread into a campaign against you, apparently to feed some irrational persecution complex you must possess.

If you don't like hermeneutics, and you have a different method of studying the Scriptures, then fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to read this thread. If you don't like this thread or the information being covered, then leave the thread alone, and you can visit your self-righteous perfectionism on someone else's thread. If you don't want to "move forward" as you say, then go bug someone else, and leave us alone with our hermeneutics. Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as a "gift of discernment." It is called the gift of "discerning of spirits." Discernment is an intellectual process. Discerning of spirits is a gift meant to make sure that others who claim to be operating in the power of God, particularly with the other gifts are truly operating in the power of God and not under a more diabolical spiritual influence.

In the future Shiloh, I would appreciate if you do not use such words as absurd to describe me or the thoughts, feelings or knowledge I may or may not have. Thank you

Well, like I said, the term fits given the fact that you seek to attribute motives to me that I do not possess, and in doing so, are trying to turn this thread into an attack on your method of Bible study. I find such actions not only absurd, but lacking in spiritual maturity and integrity. Like I said, if you don't like the material covered, and you cannot behave yourself without accusing me of things I have not said, you are free to take your leave of this thread, and it could not be soon enough, I can assure you of that.

[LightofJesus]

My My My My we sure can get ugly in here. Real Christ like you guys. Need not to defend yourselves. We all are so guilty of this defence thing we need to let God move within us and let Him speak to our hearts and tell us what He wants us to say. He wants us to study His word but my oh my He surely does not want us attacking one another. Think before you write and let's shake hands OK

[Guest shiloh357]

Determining Denotations Within A Specific Context

Once we have discovered the various meanings of a particular word would have possessed in its contemporary culture, our next task is to ascertain which of those denotations the author intended when he used the word within a given passage.

Now, some might object by saying that perhaps the author had more than one denotation in mind when he used the word and thus was attempting to communicate more than one meaning simultaneously. The problem with that, is that one only needs to examine how we communicate to see that such a method runs contrary to all normal communications. The exception to this are puns which are humorous to us, simply because they words in more than one sense simultaneously.

A good, very simple example of what I mean is the word for "flesh" in Greek "sarx." Now, this word has a variety of denotations, and a small listing of those would be:

The body (skin, muscles, etc.) 1. Cor. 15:39

The whole body, including bones Acts 2:26

Man's sensuous nature Col. 2:18

Human nature as it is in subjection to sinful desires Rom. 7:18

Now, when we turn to John 6:53, which of the above would apply? Obviously they all cannot, because then we would be attributing sin to Jesus.

As to the methods of determining the specific denotation, they would be,

1. Look at the definitions of explanatory phrases that the authors already provide

2 Tim 3:16-17 tells us that the Word of God was given that the man of God might be "perfect." Now if I am looking at the word "perfect" in my KJV, what does he mean? Does he mean flawless, without sin? The answer is that Paul supplies the meaning within the text by his own explanatory phrases that follow, "That the man of God might be thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Here, we can see that Paul uses "perfect" to mean "fully equipped for Godly living."

2. The Subject and predicate of a sentence may mutually explain each other. A good example of this is in Matt 5:13 where Jesus was talking about salt and the Greek word "moranathei" appears. Does it mean that the salt has become foolish, or insipid (without flavor). Well since Jesus is talking about salt, salt is the subject and "without flavor" would be the logical denotation.

3. Look for Parallelism if it occurs in the passage.

I mentioned before that 1/3 of the Bible is poetry, but it is Hebrew poetry which as I stated earlier employs a rhythm of ideas, rather than a rhythm of sound.

There are three types of Hebrew poetry (parallelism), Synthetic, Synonomous, and anti-thetic.

Synthetic parallelism is where the second line of the stanza carries further or completes the idea of the first line.

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,

to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

(Psalms 14:2)

Synonomous parallelism is where the second line repeats the first line but in different words

He hath not dealt with us after our sins;

nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

(Psalms 103:10)

Anti-thetic parallelism is where the second line contrasts the first line

The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again:

but the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth.

(Psalms 37:21)

4. Study Parallel passages

Often word meanings can be found in parallel passages of Scripture. It is important to make sure that you are using real parallels and not verbal parallels. By that I mean, a verbal parallel is where the same word appears but is referring to a different concept, or is being used in a different denotation. For example, as i stated earlier both the book of Romans and James use the word "justification" but they are employing different denotations, and are talking about different subject matter. Romans 5:1 and James 2:24 are verbal parallels, not real parallels. Now, if I examine Rom. 3:24 I find that it is a real parallel to Rom. 5:1. They are part of the same line of thought, and can be studied together.

Tomorrow, we will begin examining Theological Analysis

[jackie d]

it is exactly the words you chose to use on me shiloh that prevents me from moving forward with your intellectual means of knowing the word of God.

What a cop out. The reason I use the word "absurd" is because you cannot point to any place on this thread where I or anyone have asserted anything close to the position you are attributing to me. You are bent upon assigning a value to what I have presented which is opposite everything I have tried to say, and even though I have repeatedly tred to explain that I am in no way saying that one must have hermeneutics to understand the Bible at all, or have a full relationship with God, etc., you continue to assign that value to me. So, as long as you continue to falsely attribute a position to me, that I, by my own testimony have denied, I will consider such assertions on your part, "absurd" and might I add, baseless and without any demonstratable foundation.

Simply stated you are telling me that how I learn contains less knowledge of God than you. I say that is baloney. To me trying to learn the word in the manner that you do..does detract from how I learn the word of God..and it detracts from the spiritual foundation of the word, for me. It doesn't make my form of learning any less than yours...

And to state that because I don't study the word by using hermeneutics leaves me without boundaries of knowledge and the ability to test when people say they come with a "word from God", is (as far as I am concerned) is an ignorant statement. The gift of discernment can equally test and I can read, in fact I have very GOOD comprehension skills. So, to say that I can't take a word that someone states is from God..go to scripture and see if it is in alignment without hermeneutics is ludicrous....

It is rubbish like the above that demonstrates that you really don't have a grasp on it at all. The only way you have of criticizing anything I have presented is to morph it into a personal attack on you. That is completely dishonest, and misrepresents my motives. I never said that you lacked boundaries, and I never said that the way in which you learn contains less knowledge. This thread was not started as an attack on the way anyone else studies the Bible, or any method of interpretation other that what is presented here. It was started for those who are interested in learning about hermeneutics, and applying the principles therein. You came to this thread and start complaining about hermeneutics, and then when I respond as to why I see hermeneutics as valid and valuable, and even needed in some areas, you try to turn this thread into a campaign against you, apparently to feed some irrational persecution complex you must possess.

If you don't like hermeneutics, and you have a different method of studying the Scriptures, then fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to read this thread. If you don't like this thread or the information being covered, then leave the thread alone, and you can visit your self-righteous perfectionism on someone else's thread. If you don't want to "move forward" as you say, then go bug someone else, and leave us alone with our hermeneutics. Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as a "gift of discernment." It is called the gift of "discerning of spirits." Discernment is an intellectual process. Discerning of spirits is a gift meant to make sure that others who claim to be operating in the power of God, particularly with the other gifts are truly operating in the power of God and not under a more diabolical spiritual influence.

In the future Shiloh, I would appreciate if you do not use such words as absurd to describe me or the thoughts, feelings or knowledge I may or may not have. Thank you

Well, like I said, the term fits given the fact that you seek to attribute motives to me that I do not possess, and in doing so, are trying to turn this thread into an attack on your method of Bible study. I find such actions not only absurd, but lacking in spiritual maturity and integrity. Like I said, if you don't like the material covered, and you cannot behave yourself without accusing me of things I have not said, you are free to take your leave of this thread, and it could not be soon enough, I can assure you of that.

I was under the impression that this is a discussion board and that everyone had a right to enter into and discuss...obviously I am mistaken or the rules have changed. If this subject is closed to discussion from all parties shouldn't it be in another forum?

I intentionally made that last post about me and how I have learned the word of God and at no time by any means were my words an attempt to take away from nor criticize you..in fact if I remember correctly is stated something else..which you left out..I will post it so that you can see I was NOT down on you or anyone else simply stating how I am...it really wasn't about you.

I said in my last post:

"What I am hoping for with what I have written is not to give anyone the impression that I think they are less of a person of God because of their intellectual nature...but to show that we all function in a different way and that we are neither greater or lesser than one another because of our differences in our unique natures. Because unfortunately I have seen many discussions turn from bad to ugly because of this error in our thoughts and attitudes towards one another. I have been guilty of it as well as many who are here tonight and have been here in the past..I have seen over and over the belittling of one another over this and find that every time this happens we slow our personal growth and our relational growth with each other, as well as step into sin for our wrong treatment of one another. It leaves people bitter and this bitterness always carries over into other threads...causing animosity and division."

You see I was NOT tearing you or anyone else down and went to great lengths to show it so that there was no abuse! I got it anyhow!?

Well God bless you Shiloh. I hope that how you have spoken to me in this post gave you a sense of feeling better about yourself and that God was pleased about the words you have chosen to use on me. I hope that you feel superior to me as your words so clearly show that is what you felt. Perhaps you should read your words again and take them before the Lord and ask Him if you had a God given right to attempt to belittle me with your words. You must remember something too, words can never be taken back.

I forgive your trespass however, I will chalk it up to the fact that people are people and I must not hate the person but the sin.

Edited October 31, 2006 by jackie d

[Kabowd]

..... This thread was not started as an attack on the way anyone else studies the Bible, or any method of interpretation other that what is presented here. It was started for those who are interested in learning about hermeneutics, and applying the principles therein. You came to this thread and start complaining about hermeneutics, and then when I respond as to why I see hermeneutics as valid and valuable, and even needed in some areas, you try to turn this thread into a campaign against you, apparently to feed some irrational persecution complex you must possess.

If you don't like hermeneutics, and you have a different method of studying the Scriptures, then fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to read this thread. If you don't like this thread or the information being covered, then leave the thread alone, and you can visit your self-righteous perfectionism on someone else's thread. If you don't want to "move forward" as you say, then go bug someone else, and leave us alone with our hermeneutics. Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as a "gift of discernment." It is called the gift of "discerning of spirits." Discernment is an intellectual process. Discerning of spirits is a gift meant to make sure that others who claim to be operating in the power of God, particularly with the other gifts are truly operating in the power of God and not under a more diabolical spiritual influence....

Thank you!!!

[jackie d]

blessings to everyone...

In Him

Edited October 31, 2006 by jackie d

[Kabowd]

I am going to ask in all sincerely that this topic please not degenerate into personal attacks...please. For those of you who do not see the benefit in learning to rightly divide the Word, fine, then please ignore this topic it obviously isn't for you. But there are some of us who greatly wish to pursue this, who hunger and thirst for this and want to go deeper. These are the people this topic is intended for. If this doesn't describe you, feel free to start another topic. But please respect the fact that this topic had the specific intent to educate and edify those who were open and teachable. Thank you.

[LadyRaven]

I honestly don't see how a thread which is to teach the method of hermeneutics can become a debate about whether this should be done by everyone or not. I really don't.

[Scarletprayers]

I don't want to debate this topic, I want to learn about this topic. Please let those of us who want to learn about it do so. I understand everyone is not going to agree about this, and I honestly respect that fact that you have questions, so do I. Where does learning, to show thyself approved, turn into knowledge for prides sake??? But turning this thread turning into and on going argument isn't helping anybody.

[jackie d]

I am going to ask in all sincerely that this topic please not degenerate into personal attacks...please. For those of you who do not see the benefit in learning to rightly divide the Word, fine, then please ignore this topic it obviously isn't for you. But there are some of us who greatly wish to pursue this, who hunger and thirst for this and want to go deeper. These are the people this topic is intended for. If this doesn't describe you, feel free to start another topic. But please respect the fact that this topic had the specific intent to educate and edify those who were open and teachable. Thank you.

Kabowd,

I find it interesting that what I have said in this thread is taken as being degeneration by personally attacking others when in fact if every post I wrote was read you would see that I never attacked anyone. I was curious and asked questions and made a point of stating how I have learned. To state that I am unteachable and closed because I see things differently is erroneous...

There are places for locked topics. This thread was placed in general discussion and therefore is open to anyone who chooses to enter in. Regardless of whether you want a difference of opinion or not. It seems to me that those are the rules of the board. But I will respect your wishes and not say anything more in this thread after this post.

By all means go deeper with your hunger and thirst in an area where you aren't interrupted by those of us who do not see eye to eye with yourself and shiloh.

I am still looking for someone to tell me where it is in the bible that says that hermeneutics is the only sound way to learn "to rightly divide the Word"...

I found this quite interesting about hermeneutics, an excerpt taken from wikipedia on the subject of hermeneutics

A hermeneutic is defined as a specific system or method for interpretation, or a specific theory of interpretation. However, contemporary philosopher, Hans-Georg Gadamer wrote that hermeneutics itself is an approach as opposed to a method.

Hermeneutics is A system..it does not say it is THE system. I do not oppose anyone who uses this approach, it just isn't mine. That is really all I was saying from the beginning. I didn't realize that my comments and points were going to be taken as hostile toward anyone or that I would be treated shabily because I am different than others. Again, I say, I did not place one word in this thread as a means of attacking anyone. But I guess hermeneutics is a method that is incapable of rightly dividing the thoughts and attitudes of ones heart.

..I won't say anymore in this thread since I have been so pointedly asked to get lost.

Again..God bless you and have a wonderful day