Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[undone]

I`ve yet to see one iota of that love, at least.

I'll get back to the bible's definition in a second. Are you hoping that, by your defintion of love, that Christians would be attracted to you?

[jewelz123]

I`m not scared of christians.

I`m sad for them. World is full of wonderful things, yet they reject all the marvels and secrets in their relentless hunt for love. It is very unsettling... Just how humankind in general yearns for love.

- I agree the world is full of wonderful things. Could you give examples of what "they" reject in their "relentless hunt for love". It's not obvious to me.

That makes the few of us who wants other things quite the outcasts, you know.

- What "other things" do you want? This is also not obvious to me.

People automatically assume, that all is done in the name of love.

- I don't automatically assume that all is done in the name of love at all. Actually I assume most all is done in the name of Self.

What I do assume is that all of us need love. You will never prove me wrong on that.

And so, they first assume, that I`m reaching out for that. And when they realise I do not, they assume I`m a heartless monster.

- If you are not reaching out for understanding - what are you reaching out for?

As for your quotes... First is simply wrong. I`ve seen good tree give bad fruit, and bad tree giving good fruit.

Huh??

Second - idealistic. If everyone loved thy neighbor, that would be it, no?

I`ve yet to see one iota of that love, at least.

When you`ll see the saint who does, please point him/her out to me.

It appears to me that you just contradicted yourself.

If you are not interested in love - and are only interested in "other things" why do you care if you see love around you?

What part of the world do you live now? Were you in the middle of a war growing up? I ask because you have mentioned war several times. It would help to know if this is your experience.

[Ishamael]

Convenience.

I do not see love as a universal goal.

What I seek is knowledge. I want to know, why things happen and how. I want to know, how I can make things happen, and how I can stop them from happening.

Should 'love thy neighbor' be a universal rule, it would certainly be much easier for me to carry out my search for knowledge in friendly environment.

And no, I would not want christians to be attracted to me. Don`t confuse my definition of love, and christian definition of love. My point was, that christian love, despite being quite widely advertised, is seriously rare to come by as bona fine article.

_____

Don`t you get it, Cobalt?

Christianity IS your idea and standard you spread. It might not be invented by you, but it is yours as well nontheless, and you are working on furthering it.

Oh, and entirely same with my atheism. I have proof, that God does not exist, and I`m standing at it. I might agree with you on philosophical points, but I will never contend that God exists without ironclad proof.

Defending your beliefs, and preemptively attacking are different things, though. Defending what you believe in - I would expect no less from any honorable person. But lashing out at minutae provocation, and attacking not the offending argument with logic, but arguer with insults... That seems to be encountered most often. Certainly shows the depth of conviction, no?

Edited June 19, 2007 by Ishamael

[undone]

Convenience.

I do not see love as a universal goal.

What I seek is knowledge. I want to know, why things happen and how. I want to know, how I can make things happen, and how I can stop them from happening.

Should 'love thy neighbor' be a universal rule, it would certainly be much easier for me to carry out my search for knowledge in friendly environment.

And no, I would not want christians to be attracted to me. Don`t confuse my definition of love, and christian definition of love. My point was, that christian love, despite being quite widely advertised, is seriously rare to come by as bona fine article.

I'll be away from my computer for quite awhile but I'd like to pick up our discussion again at a later time.

[Ishamael]

No problem.

I`d offer to discuss over the IM service for convenience (log could be posted later here, if there is a need), though.

Hum, though, I don`t know, how to pass over my contact information. I`m quite loathe to post them directly in forum (or in profile), and you don`t seem to let us unbelievers use private messaging.

[WayneB]

That`s one of the points I raised before. How does one differentiates true christians and pharisees?

Why does that matter to you? We can't see the heart of man. Only God can. There is a passage in the Gospel of John where Peter was walking along with Jesus after being restored. Peter turned and saw John was following them. When Peter saw John, he asked Jesus, "What about him?" Jesus responding curtly, "...what is that to you? YOU must follow me!"

Forget the others friend. When you come into the Body of Christ, it will be clear what matters. A relationship with HIM.

[Ishamael]

And once again...

Wayne, Jesus does not exists. You might have your own opinion, but for me, he died two millenias ago, and got buried.

I find the consequent tales of his resurrection and ascension to heaven to be wishful fairytales rather then factual occurrance.

Obviously, for me, any interaction with Christianity is interaction with Christians, not Christ.

I believe you`re smart enough to draw your own conclusions from that statement.

___

Cobalt, and ONCE again. I do not believe God exists in first place, because all the knowledge I came across points in other direction. I have not a single shred of knowledge that would undisputably speak in favor of God`s existance.

So why would I waste my time on asking questions from non-existing entity? I don`t have much time left, you know, to waste it on my knees praying for answers noone knows.

You are saying "answers" - but I know it`s a delusion. No amount of prayers will tell me, how world is made.

___

Think about it. I want to know ALL, including how to be god. I want to know things that per christianity, God never meant humankind to know.

If I were Eve, I would take the apple of knowledge without Serpent`s persuasion. Because I WANT to know. I want to know it all. And I would not tolerate anyone standing in my path. Be it Serpent or God.

___

That is one of my reasons for unbelieving. I already know enough of how the world is made to know, that it has no place for the God. God is in your minds, nowhere else.

God is within every single one of you - you ALL contribute a little part to that God. It`s all of you, who make it exist for you.

This, in a way, is why I say that christianity is your ideal and standard you all further. Because every one of you has a God inside he/she is striving forward too. Too bad that you haven`t developed more efficient ways to do so.

But you will. Even the most devoted monk evolves slowly. You had abandoned the masochistic hair-woven habits and voluntary starvation already, did you not?

[WayneB]

And once again...

Wayne, Jesus does not exists. You might have your own opinion, but for me, he died two millenias ago, and got buried.

I find the consequent tales of his resurrection and ascension to heaven to be wishful fairytales rather then factual occurrance.

Obviously, for me, any interaction with Christianity is interaction with Christians, not Christ.

I believe you`re smart enough to draw your own conclusions from that statement.

Once again, the statement that Jesus doesn't exist is YOUR opinion only.

My conclusions are based on eye witness accounts; not wishful thinking. I have no need of good wishes when what I have is true HOPE.

The earliest Christian creed first verbalized and then appearing in text is found in 1 Corinthians 15, which states "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

This creed was formalized sometime shortly after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and written down a short 20 years or so after that when Paul wrote his 1st letter to the church of Corinth.

One more thing, just so you are aware...

When you interact with Christians, you are interacting with Christ. [Romans 8:10-12]

...and lastly, "But our citizenship is in heaven." [Philippians 3:20a] I think that may what you're missing. It's not that we have different opinions or that we live in different cultures. It is much more. We aren't of this world any longer. We seeked TRUTH and we found it in Jesus Christ. It was at that point that the veil was removed from before our eyes...

"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." [2 Cor 3:18] Amen.

Ishamael, you seem like a fine person. You have come to us seeking some understanding of us. I hope you're have a favorable experience.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

[Ishamael]

You, of course, realise, that Bible is not an authoritative source to me?

Personally, I consider Bible to be a manual for organising medieval society, of sorts. It contains all the essential information needed to sustain a moderately-sized nation within Mediterranean region, complete with national religion and philosophy.

And while it is a text of great historical value, I do not share the opinion of it being infallible truth.

I have to note, that the assertion, that Bible should be alpha and omega of knowledge scares me. Also, Bible is not the only book to be offered as such alpha and omega. Qu`ran and Torah are considered such by corresponding religions as well.

Do you know, how Great Alexandria Library was rased? It was conquered by muslims, who burned it to the ground for following reason - "If those books contradict Qu`Ran, they are harmful, as they go against Allah. If they compliment Qu`ran, they are useless, as Qu`ran has all we need."

_____

And yes... I want to know, what makes you believe. It seems to be so illogical, that there must be a reason. It can`t be what you say - contradiction of facts. So... There must be another reason, why you all believe. Something inside your minds.

[undone]

And yes... I want to know, what makes you believe. It seems to be so illogical, that there must be a reason. It can`t be what you say - contradiction of facts. So... There must be another reason, why you all believe. Something inside your minds.

It's called the Holy Spirit. I comes from God through Jesus Christ our Lord.