No rapture or left behind

[Jesus Admirer]

While your all so busy pushing scripture and mildly insulting each another, is this something we are supposed to divide over? You guys are Christians, right?

Why don't you guys debate with civility. No one has this thing 100% figured out.

Sorry,

But I was trying to plead my case, but Christopher John keeps attacking everything I write, so I was just responding to him. But as far as pushing scriptures: I would that all Christians would back up their statements with scriptures, and I really don't see what problem you have with that. Would you like to see Christian Preaching without any scripture foundation?

I guess I come from the old school, where they use to say: "Show me chapter and verse" Theology based apart from scripture is only that of man's own head. One might form there opinions, but are they Biblically based?

Sometimes things can get heated in hot debate, so I think it's a cheap shot from you to attack two Christians who are in hot debate. I also think you should take a look at your own words above, and notice you're doing the same thing. Yes! Let's consider your words: "Busy Pushing Scripture" That seems sort of sarcastic to me.

[Jesus Admirer]

While your all so busy pushing scripture and mildly insulting each another, is this something we are supposed to divide over? You guys are Christians, right?

Why don't you guys debate with civility. No one has this thing 100% figured out.

Sorry,

But I was trying to plead my case, but Christopher John keeps attacking everything I write, so I was just responding to him. But as far as pushing scriptures: I would that all Christians would back up their statements with scriptures, and I really don't see what problem you have with that. Would you like to see Christian Preaching without any scripture foundation?

I guess I come from the old school, where they use to say: "Show me chapter and verse" Theology based apart from scripture is only that of man's own head. One might form there opinions, but are they Biblically based?

Sometimes things can get heated in hot debate, so I think it's a cheap shot from you to attack two Christians who are in hot debate. I also think you should take a look at your own words above, and notice you're doing the same thing. Yes! Let's consider your words: "Busy Pushing Scripture" That seems sort of sarcastic to me.

Great. Duke it out. But here is some scripture for you:

2 Timothy 2:22-25 22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

Great Scripture, but I'm not trying to duke it out with anyone. I just tried to plead my case and was attacked for it. Then you also attacked me for responding to that. I don't honestly believe defending my faith is duking it out.

I also don't believe responding to one who is attacking everything I write is duking it out either. I'm believe it's more properly called defending myself and position. Perhaps you should write Tim Lahaye and accuse him of duking it out when he attacks PreWrath defenders calling them heretics.

While you're at it, then go to the whole pretribulation rapture crowd and tell all their church leaders that they were duking it out when they falsely accused PreWrath defenders as heretics, and then throw PreWrath defenders out of their denominations.

Marvin Rosenthal was a Missionary Pastor who preached Pretribulation Rapture for 30 years as a Pastor, but then he was called a heretic by his denomination because he changed his mind and started preaching a Prewrath rapture, because he seen the fallacy in the pretribulation rapture theory.

It's not a matter of me trying to duke it out with anyone, but I'm getting awful sick and tired of Pretribulaton rapture defenders attacking and calling preWrath defenders heretics and false teachers, when PreWrath defenders base their position on much Biblical scripture, which you call pushing, while the Pretribers base theirs on blind speculation adding words to scriptures, which the scriptures never said in the first place.

It's my sincere intention to respond to the Blind and wrongful Judgements, which Pretribulation defenders have accused PreWrath Defenders of without cause or any scripture to do it with. It seems to be O.K. for main stream pretribulation rapture preachers to attack anyone who disagrees with them in any way they please, but then we who oppose them are jumped on by people such as yourself for just merely turning the tables on them.

Pretribers have had their say for over 150 years, and now it's time Christians challenge their fallacy with scriptural truth, which you call pushing scripture. But I call it using God's Word to correct their fallacy.

Bottom Line: Call it what you want, but I always put up my dukes to defend myself whenever someone attacks me. But if you have a problem with it, then I suggest you start approaching the whole body of Pretribulation rapture defenders, and share your peace scriptures with them, because they start throwing stones everytime anyone preaches scripture which is contrary to their unscriptural man made Pretribulation Rapture theory.

Let's see: According to them we are heretics, false teachers, and troublemakers because we challenge their fallacy with scripture. (that means we are accuse of bringing strife into the body of Christ because we show scriptures that contradict their lie.)

Do I get offended when they do this? Absolutely! Because they're taring at the credibility, integrity, and spirituality of anyone who disagrees with their dcctrine, as if their doctrine holds authority over God's Word that contradicts it. I know one such person with those attributes. (His name is Satan)

I want to finish by saying that Christopher John has not gone that far on this thread, so I wasn't exactly referring to him, when I speak about pretribulation rapture defenders as a whole. But even Christopher John himself made indications he was holding back from sarcasm. (Yet he did accuse me of false teaching with no evidence for his false accusations.)

It's true that the majority of the Church believes in a pretribulation rapture, so that theory has become one of the main strean status quo doctrines in the Church. It's also true that the main Stream Church will label anyone a heretic who disagrees with it. (Sorry! But I might also be responding to several Books I have been reading from Pretribulatioin Rapture defenders blasting PreWrath Preachers of heresy, and then seeing them defend their own pretrib theories with nothing.) It really ittitates me, and I admit it.

I just said that, so you know all my words aren't just directed at you, but my words are directed at a whole sect of people who seem to discredit anyone who quotes scriptures that are contradictory to their beliefs. Their thinking is: The Church says it, so it must be true, and most of them don't even know why they believe it, except that their Pastor said so.

Many times I have heard them say: "But my Pastor says" Of Course that's after I show them 20 scriptures which contradict their Pastor. But then they say. 'Well" My Pastor knows more than you" I guess that means their Pastor knows more than the scriprtures I quoted to them.

But I don't get irritated with them, because I realize they have been deceived by false doctrine taught in the church. (I do encourage them to study on their own.)

But what really irritates me is when their elders in the church will defend a doctrine which has no Biblical foundation, by adding their own words to scriptures, and then labeling anyone a heretic, who shows scriptures that plainly contadict their false doctrines.

The sad thing is: All these gullible church members, who haven't studied for themselves, who fall prey to this false teaching in the church, because they have so much faith in their Pastors, who were probably brainwashed with the false doctrine themselves. (Which means they are ignorantly wrong.)

Bottom Line: Yes! It irritates me much! I would think it would also concern you, if false doctrine is being preached in the Church. You aren't one of those who will stand peacefully on the side, while lies are preached in your church. Are you?

There's an old saying that goes: All good men have to do for evil to prevail: Is peacefully do nothing! The point is: Sometimes it requires conflict to defend the faith.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Jesus Admirer

[Jesus Admirer]

I just said that, so you know all my words aren't just directed at you,

Please notice my quote above from myself. Apparently you missed that, because now you claim I aimed all I said at you, but that wasn't true. I said in my post that my comments were aimed at a whole sect of people, which you also didn't notice.

But know this: My correspondence with Christopher John started, when he attacked an article I wrote on my own website.

If you will go back to my first post on this thread, then you will see I only gave links to my article, which is on my own website. (Which means I never said anything then)It was Christipoher John who attacked it, before I ever intended to have any interaction with him. I have been responding to his comments every since.

It was first Christopher John who accuse me of False teaching, before I ever said a word to him. So I wrote this, just to set the record straight. You can go back and read it all yourself. (No need to take my word for it.)

So Christopher John first attacked me, and I responded. It's just that in your first post to us, you directed at both of us, what he started. I will agree that he very politely attacked me, but he did attack me first, as most pretribers will.

I never said your comments were unfounded. I even said you gave a great scripture. But I do think you are analizing this whole situation wrong, so for peace sake I'll say this. Tell pretribers I won't, if they don't. But when they do, then I will defend myself.

I also stated that I was irritated, but that irritation has built up through the years, as one pretriber after another has degraded any Christian who disagreed with them. So again! I'm referring to them as a whole, and not to you.

I also admitted that I do get irritated in my last post, but also stated who I was irritated at. (I never said it was you)

So how you came up with the idea that I was aiming all at you is beyond me, because I made it very clear that most my irritation was directed elsewheres.

As far as who should believe me or not is irrelevent. It's really about who will believe scripture that conflicts with the pretribulation rapture doctrine. I'm not the only one who opposes them. Other preachers have very peacefully approached them, yet were still called heretics by them.

So sometimes it really doesn't matter how one approaches them, if they already believe a lie.

I started out on this thread very peacefully giving two links to my article. But I was falsely accused of false teaching, without me saying a word to anyone here. (That's where it all started) Go back and read it yourself.

Jesus Admirer, I am am not attacking you OR CJ. I am saying that you are not debating each other and you are not displaying Christian love. To each other or anyone else. Point of fact, you are now railing against me. You are using scripture at each other like bullets out of a gun. What is more important, displaying the Love of Christ, or "being right?" You are preaching to me about false doctrine and you don't even know where I stand. You don't find that a bit ironic? I do. It is also quite revealing that you would now castigate me for simply trying to calm things down a bit. Neither one of you is going to change your positions anyway, so it is all kind of a moot point, is it not? If you treat everyone this way, it's no wonder that they won't listen to what you have to say. Can I have my head back now?

[Jesus Admirer]

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore, because I have to agree with Cobalt1959, that I do get rather irritated. One thing Cobalt1959 said to me is also true, and that is nobody will listen to me, if my irritation is showing.

So what I'm going to do is give a link to a website of a very peacful Baptist Preacher with a degree in Divinity, who gives a good account of the PreWrath Rapture theory, so all can learn it from him if you're interested.

Please know that this Minister doesn't even know me, so I hope you will except him as a peaceful preacher apart from my irritations with pretribulation rapture defenders. I also want to add that this Minister has received his degrees from a Baptist Seminary, but the PreWrath Rapture Doctrine isn't a Baptist Doctrine.

I first read a book about PreWrath from a Minister who had been an Assembly Of God Minister for over 30 years, but was denounced by the Assembly of God denomination, because he changed his mind about a Pretribulation rapture, and then started preaching the PreWrath Rapture.

But now this Baptist Minister Dr. Elbert D. Charpie also preaches PreWrath, which isn't a Baptist or Assemblies of God Doctrine. Because both the Baptist and Assembly Of God Denominations will generally preach a Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine.

There will also be other books named on his website written by others who share the PreWrath Doctrine.

Here is an insert from his website about this Minister:

Dr. Elbert D. Charpie lives in Johnson City, Tennessee where he has pastored Grace Baptist Church for over ten years. He has studied end time events for several years and developed "In View of the End" about five years ago. Dr. Charpie earned his Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

Here's the link to his website that will give the PreWrath Rapture view.

http://prewrathministries.org/index.html

Edited June 19, 2007 by Jesus Admirer

[MorningGlory]

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore, because I have to agree with Cobalt1959, that I do get rather irritated. One thing Cobalt1959 said to me is also true, and that is nobody will listen to me, if my irritation is showing.

So what I'm going to do is give a link to a website of a very peacful Baptist Preacher with a degree in Divinity, who gives a good account of the PreWrath Rapture theory, so all can learn it from him if you're interested.

Please know that this Minister doesn't even know me, so I hope you will except him as a peaceful preacher apart from my irritations with pretribulation rapture defenders. I also want to add that this Minister has received his degrees from a Baptist Seminary, but the PreWrath Rapture Doctrine isn't a Baptist Doctrine.

I first read a book about PreWrath from a Minister who had been an Assembly Of God Minister for over 30 years, but was denounced by the Assembly of God denomination, because he changed his mind about a Pretribulation rapture, and then started preaching the PreWrath Rapture.

But now this Baptist Minister Dr. Elbert D. Charpie also preaches PreWrath, which isn't a Baptist or Assemblies of God Doctrine. Because both the Baptist and Assembly Of God Denominations will generally preach a Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine.

There will also be other books named on his website written by others who share the PreWrath Doctrine.

Here is an insert from his website about this Minister:

Dr. Elbert D. Charpie lives in Johnson City, Tennessee where he has pastored Grace Baptist Church for over ten years. He has studied end time events for several years and developed "In View of the End" about five years ago. Dr. Charpie earned his Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

Here's the link to his website that will give the PreWrath Rapture view.

http://prewrathministries.org/index.html

[None]

Allow me to set the stage....

The time is the new world order under one religion. The antichrist is killing all who do not pledge his alliance. You cannot buy, sell, or trade without his mark.

What would you do? Where would you go? How do you protect your family? How would you survive? Do you have a plan if this horrible event should ever occur?

Wouldn't posting our plans here give away, well...our plans?

Anyway, I believe in the second coming and I'm not worried about it.

[Johni]

As concerns what we would do if we had to choose between taking the mark or being unable to buy or sell, this reminds me of something that happened recently. (I would like to add in parenthesis that I do believe in the pre-trib rapture although can see the possibility that it might be pre-wrath). If you remember when the Fox news correspondant and his camera man were captured by (I think) Hamas in the Gaza strip. These two guys were released after a fairly short time. Later they were interviewed and I listened with interest but the part I wanted to hear more about was hardly mentioned. Just the very first news after their release seemed to even relate this and then it was like it was pushed under a rug, but they were made to convert to Islam. The Camera man, who is Swedish, I believe, was interrogated by the captors first. When he came back he was able to talk briefly to the captured reporter and told him. They are prepared to kill you so do exactly as they say. This will mean saying you convert to Islam but you better do it or else. (something to that effect). The Fox news guy indicated that he did not want to do that but the camera man told him to just do it---as it means nothing to you---just to satisfy them. The Fox news guy, was asked about Islam and did receive the demand to say that he accepted Islam as the only true religion yada yada yada... It was obvious from the first report that he did not like having to do that.

But the later interview talked about a lot of what they went through but did not talk about the forced conversion.

The thing that came to my mind was how much easier it is to say to yourself "well, I don't really mean it, and I will just say this to save my life, or my family".

I don't think the camera man had much of any kind of religious belief anyway, but from what was originally said, that the news guy did not want to do this, I think he might have been (at least nominally) Christian.

When I think of how God's children in the past were killed because they would not do things like bow to Ceasar or such as that, I would really be fearful for the eternal consequences of taking this easier path. Wasn't it Polycarp at over 90 years of age was martyred because he refused to throw incense on a fire, or some such thing that acknowledged Ceasar as a god?

Did anyone else see the news on this and hear about this forced conversion?? We do not get told the complete truth a lot of times. I guess its not politically correct to accuse the peaceful religion of Islam with forced conversion but it is happening all over the place even in our present day and time.

As far as people not being willing to take the mark.... one of my pastors used to say "If you won't give your heart now, you won't give your head then".

[undone]

I'm a pre-tribber, so I'll fly away oh glory, I'll fly away.

If not, I'll grow my own and if needed take a bullet to the brainpan.

I hear rats taste like chicken...

[mikerunk]

I just drink some redbull which will give me wings, so no worries for me.

All kidding aside, I don't really care how it happens or when it happens. There is not a thing about it I can do. I know im not going to serve the anti-christ, which means I will be hauled off to be excuted, in which case I give him the finger, and try and grab a weapon. Id rather go down fighting.

[mightyshins]

Unlike my other posts, this is what I'm concerned about, I've spent much time praying and reading and seeking and finding out about this.

The antichrist was around when Christ was killed.

He was around in spirit, not in flesh, I believe he is still around and gaining in strength, and in pride, according to God's plan.

You look all around and you can see it, rock music has the devil written all over it, the pride of rappers for being criminals, yet a little more subtle still has the devil written all over it, you can feel the fornications building up when you hear the music.

You can feel the sin reaching up towards heaven, everyday is a raging war, I don't know if I am winning or losing.

I try to help other people, but my faults prevent me from doing that, so any of you who have read my previous posts please forgive me in the past and for future times.

I do get worked up over little things that shouldn't be done, but when I do I don'[t take time to look at myself.

I know I will be forgiven, I know it's been prayed I come around.

The faith I have grows stronger, but along with that so does the opposition to it.

I want to have great faith and am willing to suffer any length to obtain a full relationship with god.

I desire the spiritual gifts so when I tell people of him, they will believe.

As carnal as that sounds, I used to be into witchcraft, and in the end it turned into God showing me what the truth is, I've seen mch with witchcraft, and know that things greater are possible with God.

I've also seen others, who you would not expect to be witches to be witches, I will speak no more of them though.

Walking in the valley of the shadow of death is what I've been doing for some time, and I'ev been right smack dab in the middle of it as well, I was given up to the devil, saw many great things I though I could never see, and turned from my ways. Sometiems pride in my faith gets to me. "Let him who boasts boast in the lord". I want to be able to do that, but it never turns out that way.

I am still young and still hope for a relationship and to lead many people to him.

I strive to be perfect but go to take two steps with my right foot and stumble. So, again, I've seen much and know much but I suffer from backsliding.

East for some to deal with, for others not so easy, maybe my faith is not what I crack it up to be.

Sorry for getting off topic. I think I did stay on topic for a sentence or two.

Edit: I forgot to put my opinion on the rapture, I believe since the antichrist and Babylon are spiritual things to me, I think the day that god takes his people out of babylon, those who did not know what it was, an still believed on god, being simple. I think that is what the rapture is. Please test it and see. I'm not sure myself but through my prayers and studying that's what I've come to believe.

Edited July 5, 2007 by pornophobic