Baptism

[Guest PeterW.]

Matthew 3:11

"As for me I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

I believe that being baptized with water is a good thing, but not neccessary for salvation. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is what is neccessary for salvation. Sometimes these baptisms occurr in conjunction, sometimes they do not.

[The Journey]

I feel that obedience to Christ's commands is necissary for salvation (as He clearly taught), and baptism is a direct commandment of Christ (the great commission), so baptism is required for salvation.

Endure,

So you are a member of the Churches of Christ.

One point for anyone studying baptism is to realize that the word "baptism" is not a translation. The word translated would mean "immersion" or "identification." The word "baptism" was created by the KJV translators because the Church of England uses sprinkling and not immersion. It was a matter of self preservation as King James would have had them put to death for a translation that contradicted Church doctrine.

For those who believe that we must do something to be saved it follows that we could not do something and lose our salvation. Thus E4S screen name (we must endure to keep ourselves saved). The opposite view is that we were chosen for salvation and both faith and salvation are gifts of God. Thus, salvation is not a matter of any act of obedience including baptism or the Eucharist.

- Steve

[Guest Bunky]

Bunky

In fact it causes me heartache to see it so *manipulated.*

The Word of God is manipulated by people like you who seek to teach another gospel other than the one that Bible teaches.

Seek to teach another gospel? I thought that there was only one and I know that I'm not the one who is confused.

I could sit here and quote scripture from now on and you would not believe what the Word says. Sorry that I hit a nerve, but I'm entitled to believe what the Spirit of God says and not what you or anyone else thinks.

Sorry to have upset your Thanksgiving Day.

Bunky

[Guest shiloh357]

Seek to teach another gospel? I thought that there was only one and I know that I'm not the one who is confused.

I could sit here and quote scripture from now on and you would not believe what the Word says. Sorry that I hit a nerve, but I'm entitled to believe what the Spirit of God says and not what you or anyone else thinks.

Hey, guess what Bunky, there IS another gospel. You know how I know? Galatians 1:8-9

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul said there was another gospel. If you read the rest of Galatians, you will find that Paul blasted them, and ripped them up one side and down the other because they added circumcision to the gospel. They taught (as you teach) that faith in Christ is insufficient for salvation. They taught that circumcision was necessary to be saved. Since Paul, in Colossians 2: 11-12, equates circumcision with baptism, and since Paul hated the doctrine of salvation by circumcision, he would also hate your doctrine of salvation by Baptism. Paul would say the same things to you that he said to the Galatians.

Sorry that I hit a nerve, but I'm entitled to believe what the Spirit of God says and not what you or anyone else thinks.

You are not believing in anything from the Holy Spirit. You are believing in a seriously flawed interpretation of Scripture, and blaming it on the Holy Spirit. Lots of people do that. Anytime some teaches anything other than salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, they are preaching another gospel. By teaching that one must be baptized in order to be saved you are taking the focus of faith off of Christ and placing it in yourself. You are putting faith in baptism, and not in Christ alone. You are trampling underfoot the blood of the Son of God.

[Guest Calamity]

Seek to teach another gospel? I thought that there was only one and I know that I'm not the one who is confused.

I could sit here and quote scripture from now on and you would not believe what the Word says. Sorry that I hit a nerve, but I'm entitled to believe what the Spirit of God says and not what you or anyone else thinks.

Hey, guess what Bunky, there IS another gospel. You know how I know? Galatians 1:8-9

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul said there was another gospel. If you read the rest of Galatians, you will find that Paul blasted them, and ripped them up one side and down the other because they added circumcision to the gospel. They taught (as you teach) that faith in Christ is insufficient for salvation. They taught that circumcision was necessary to be saved. Since Paul, in Colossians 2: 11-12, equates circumcision with baptism, and since Paul hated the doctrine of salvation by circumcision, he would also hate your doctrine of salvation by Baptism. Paul would say the same things to you that he said to the Galatians.

Sorry that I hit a nerve, but I'm entitled to believe what the Spirit of God says and not what you or anyone else thinks.

You are not believing in anything from the Holy Spirit. You are believing in a seriously flawed interpretation of Scripture, and blaming it on the Holy Spirit. Lots of people do that. Anytime some teaches anything other than salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, they are preaching another gospel. By teaching that one must be baptized in order to be saved you are taking the focus of faith off of Christ and placing it in yourself. You are putting faith in baptism, and not in Christ alone. You are trampling underfoot the blood of the Son of God.

Verses have been quoted, time and time again, and seems like some don't want to, or cannot understand. The Gospel doesn't include baptism, according to what I read in the Bible. Baptism definitely is not a requirement for salvation, and neither is any other physical act or deed or work.

If you'd like to believe that, then go ahead, but it's unnecessary, and like has been pointed out, you are not putting your faith totally in Jesus for your salvation, and that is where our salvation is.

By the way, Shiloh357 - some very good posts you've been doing here.

[Guest shiloh357]

I posted here,for another thread so I am deleting this and moving what was posted elsewhere.

[Guest tiggr]

Do not pretend that you do not use commentaries.

NO. I dont use commentary. Say what you want and call names all you want but I do not trust in the arm of flesh if you want to know what the Bible says about something then do some praying/fasting and reading of God's word. You can trust in commentaries and hermans all you want I will rely on God. You say that I have added to the word but yet I presented you with scriptures that you replied to with commentaries, you take Gods word and using other peoples words thoughts and ideas and make the word of God into confusion.

John 20:23

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them

this was told to the disciples after Jesus was ressurected and was sending them out. How were they to remit someones sins they were only humans.

This is not talking about remission of sins that brings about salvation. It is an entirely different issue. This had to to with legal issues. In the first century, Jewish people brought their disputes to a panel of Judges called the "Bet Din."

You have got to be kidding me. This is how you view this scripture. I have seen some lame off the wall things before but this takes the cake I must give you credit for coming up with this one or did you get it from some commentary? This does not even come close to what the scripture is saying.

As far as being closed minded the same thing could be said about you, and as far as the reason behind why I even started this topic it was because I thought someone here might be able to give me some me information that I could research. I thought that maybe some one might be able to tell me where/ how I might be able to find out when there was a change in the method that is used.

No one has avoided answering any question except for you and those who have yet to respond to the initial post. Instead it was turned into a debate that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

You remind me of the early catholic church that used to burn people at the stake when they would not trust in what the pope said and wanted to read the Bible for themselves and trust in God

[Guest CatscanCam]

If Baptism were essential to salvation then tell me why oh why didn't Jesus say to the theif beside him on the cross "Uhh, today you will be with me in heaven as soon as you get down off that cross and get yourself baptized."?

Well, because water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, wasn't required until after Jesus' death.

The thief died before the "grace dispensation." I feel that the thief may have been saved, but not under grace. So, that being the situation, baptism wasn't required for the him.

Bunky

What? How did he get to go to heaven and be next to Jesus? By? Believing right? Because the theif believed jesus was the Messiah he got to go to heaven. As far as I know the Jews weren't required to believe in Jesus to go to heaven before the "grace" period. It was the belief in Jesus alone which saved the theif and so he got there by grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

NO. I dont use commentary. Say what you want and call names all you want but I do not trust in the arm of flesh if you want to know what the Bible says about something then do some praying/fasting and reading of God's word. You can trust in commentaries and hermans all you want I will rely on God. You say that I have added to the word but yet I presented you with scriptures that you replied to with commentaries, you take Gods word and using other peoples words thoughts and ideas and make the word of God into confusion.

Oh Please!! This is absurd. God has given us teachers as gifts to the body of Christ. That is found in Ephesians chapter4. If he did not want us to learn and take knowledge from one another, he would not have anointed people to teach and write books. I find it almost humorous how people like try to act so sanctimonious saying that you do not "trust in the arm of flesh" or "man's opinions" or things of similar ilk. It is funny, how that whenever someone disagrees with you, then you think that you can brush their views aside as "man's opinion." What about your opinion? Are you not human? What is it that makes YOUR opinion "From God," and everyone elses opinion is just "from man?" Talk about arrogant. You go to church don't you? Do you listen to your preacher? Do you listen to your Sunday School teacher? Do you read ANY Christian books? Your belief system came from somewhere. You are not the only one who teaches baptismal regeneration. It is not something that YOU and YOU alone got from God.

So it is just plain hypocritical to pretend that everything you believe is just a product of prayer and fasting. (Not that I am down on prayer and fasting) I use the teachers that God has given us to learn more. God has shown other people things that he has not shown either you or me. It is just pride on your part to assume that you know it all, and that there is nothing else to see about a given subject other than what little knowledge you possess.

This is not talking about remission of sins that brings about salvation. It is an entirely different issue. This had to to with legal issues. In the first century, Jewish people brought their disputes to a panel of Judges called the "Bet Din."

You have got to be kidding me. This is how you view this scripture. I have seen some lame off the wall things before but this takes the cake I must give you credit for coming up with this one or did you get it from some commentary? This does not even come close to what the scripture is saying.

I am Jewish by birth. I have a significant understanding of Scripture from a Hebraic understanding. You obviously know nothing about first century Israel. There is more to understanding why Jesus said and did certain things. Jesus was, in this passage, transferring spiritual authority to His disciples. The statements that Jesus made both in John and in Luke were common rabbinic practices at that time. Whenever a Rabbi felt his disciples were prepared, he transferred his authority to them. It was the authority to teach, legislate, and judiciate. The disciples were given this same authority by Jesus. This tied into the whole "keys of the Kingdom." They were given the right to settle disputes between believers. That is why I mentioned the "Bet Din." This was a common practice of the time period and in some places is still done today. It is not off the wall. It is just another example of your biblical/cultural illiteracy showing.

As far as being closed minded the same thing could be said about you, and as far as the reason behind why I even started this topic it was because I thought someone here might be able to give me some me information that I could research. I thought that maybe some one might be able to tell me where/ how I might be able to find out when there was a change in the method that is used.

No one has avoided answering any question except for you and those who have yet to respond to the initial post. Instead it was turned into a debate that has nothing to do with the question at hand

Why are you asking us? I THOUGHT YOU DO NOT TRUST IN THE "ARM OF FLESH?" Why don't you just pray and fast and let God tell you? That is how you get everything else isn't it? Seems kind of contradictory. Any answer we could give is just "man's opinion" anyway. Any website we could send you to would be filled with nothing but "man's opinions and ideas."

You remind me of the early catholic church that used to burn people at the stake when they would not trust in what the pope said and wanted to read the Bible for themselves and trust in God

You remind me of the Judaisers who added works to the Gospel and taught people that it was their works, and not Jesus that gets them to heaven. You remind me of those who trample underfoot the gospel in preference to a doctrine of demons.

[Guest Bunky]

Uh....back to the subject of water baptism! Try this link! It gives some very interesting information about water baptism.

http://www.bromac.com/Godhead/baptism.htm

MEE