Grafted with the Jewish

[Guest yod]

I am totally with you on the "spiritual" Israel thing, man...

The context of this passage isn't quite as clear as it is in Romans 2 though. I think there is a sense where He is including gentiles in the Israel of God which is a completely different thing than saying they are "spiritual" jews

Not a big deal....just seems more like a metaphor than a theological position.

[ginakay]

Ernie, I do not think I am Jewish, either spiritual or natural. I do not understand your saying the Kingdom of Heaven was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles. I thought (in Christ) there was neither Jew nor Gentile.

I don't know about Paul and other early Jewish Christians being a remnant. A remnant of what??

Prior to the coming of Jesus and His death and resurrection the Jewish people were judged by the law, is that right? And if they followed the law and kept the ordinances weren't they accepted by God --because they were actually doing this by faith, awaiting for the Messiah? After the Messiah came the law and the ordinances were no longer acceptable, the faith had to be faith in the Messiah. So that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ (looking forward to His coming ) and we are part of the body of Christ (looking back to His coming). I can't see that we are separate from the OT saints.

I should say that I do not have a dogmatic stand on this. I am still trying to learn.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Ginakay,

Ernie, I do not think I am  Jewish, either spiritual or natural.  I do not understand your saying the Kingdom of Heaven was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles.  I thought (in Christ) there was neither Jew nor Gentile. 

STORY OF SIMEON & ANNA

Luke 2:25-38 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

NOTE REGARDING JOSEPH OF ARIMATHAEA

Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

INTRODUCTION TO NATHANAEL

John 1:45-49 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

For many hundreds, perhaps thousands of years the TRUE Jews were looking for their Coming Messiah wherein there would be redemption for Israel. These 3 are some of those who were sincerely seeking the coming "Kingdom of God" that should be made manifest in Israel and make atonement for Israel's sins and restore them to the good graces of God. They expected Jesus to come and begin His rule in this world, coming in the flesh as a babe and taking up the mantle of the Lion of Judah to bring in everlasting peace.

But this was not to be, for it was those fleshly kinsman of the above who sought to kill Jesus and ultimately DID! Here is Jesus' comment regarding THEIR LOSS of the Kingdom of God:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Then in Acts, we see the disciples ask:

Acts 1:6-7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

After the resurrection, the disciples believed that Christ was going to take the reigns and begin His Rule. Probably overthrowing the Romans and taking back the land according to the "promise". They still hadn't quite gotten it yet, for Jesus had already told them:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

You are correct that "in Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile". However, throughout the scriptures a distinction remains because of their individual histories, because of what we share, and because their heart has been temporarily hardened until the "fulness of the gentile be come in (to the Kingdom of God)". This does not mean that there is a DIFFERENT salvation for them, only that "they who were first, shall be last".

I don't know about Paul and other early Jewish Christians being a remnant. A remnant of what??

While Jesus was yet alive, many, many Jews began to believe, but once He was put on the cross, the saying came true: "strike the shephard and the sheep will scatter". Only a FEW remained with Jesus. After the resurrection, many more Jews began to get saved, but as persecution began and 70 A.D. came along, these too scattered. So there were a couple times during those turbulent years where BELIEVING Jews remaining in Israel were but a few - a "remnant" of which Paul claimed to be.

Prior to the coming of Jesus and His death and resurrection the Jewish people were judged by the law, is that right? And if they followed the law and kept the ordinances weren't they accepted by God --because they were actually doing this by faith, awaiting for the Messiah?  After the Messiah came the law and the ordinances were no longer acceptable, the faith had to be faith in the Messiah.  So that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ (looking forward to His coming ) and we are part of the body of Christ (looking back to His coming).  I can't see that we are separate from the OT saints.

Please read these verses. These are good for ALL time, NT and OT:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You are the seed of Abraham if you exhibit the same "faith" he had toward God. He is the "father of our faith".

All the "law" did was to convict, it was NEVER meant to save anyone.

I should say that I do not have a  dogmatic stand on this.  I am still trying to learn.

I know that, and I hope I have provided the appropriate scriptures for you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shiloh357]

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I cannot comment on the whole post at this time, but I will comment on just the above statement. He was speaking to the corrupt leadership and not to the nation of Israel in general. In the accompanying parable, the corrupt element of the Jewish leadership were the ones who the Lord was addressing. It is from them, and not the Jews as a whole that the nation would be taken.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shiloh,

What you said is NOT written in the scriptures. But I would agree that the Kingdom of God was NOT taken from the TRUE BELIEVING JEWS. So what's your take on:

Acts 1:6-7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

Ernie, I do not think I am Jewish, either spiritual or natural. I do not understand your saying the Kingdom of Heaven was taken from the Jews and given to the gentiles. I thought (in Christ) there was neither Jew nor Gentile.

I don't know about Paul and other early Jewish Christians being a remnant. A remnant of what??

Prior to the coming of Jesus and His death and resurrection the Jewish people were judged by the law, is that right? And if they followed the law and kept the ordinances weren't they accepted by God --because they were actually doing this by faith, awaiting for the Messiah? After the Messiah came the law and the ordinances were no longer acceptable, the faith had to be faith in the Messiah. So that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ (looking forward to His coming ) and we are part of the body of Christ (looking back to His coming). I can't see that we are separate from the OT saints.

I should say that I do not have a dogmatic stand on this. I am still trying to learn.

Bang on Ginakay! Exactly right!

[Guest shiloh357]

What you said is NOT written in the scriptures.

That is a bit vague. What exactly did I say that you are referring to? Here is what I am talking about, and it is from the Scriptures.

Matthew 21:33-43

[ginakay]

Ernie,

thanks for your response. Also enjoying the thoughts of others. But another question along this same line. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that Salvation is of the Jews. I am not completely sure what he meant but I think it is to do with the fact that God chose to use Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob to be the means of revealing himself to the world. And, of course, our Messiah also came from this source as well (humanly speaking).

I was thinking that the Church, the body of Christ, is made up of believers of all ages. But that it is never separate from the promises made to Abraham. THat therefore, to be a Christian, would be to have been made spiritual heirs of the promises of Abraham. That is why I was thinking of it as the church being grafted in to the spiritual Israel. However that may be the wrong term. Mainly I am just acknowledging that we owe a lot to the Jewish faith which is the root or our own Christian faith and how can we separate ourselves form that root? So it seemed like grafted in was the right term.

That terminology is also used in scripture.

On the other hand I believe that the physical or natural Jewish people have a place in the plan of God that is not displaced by the church.

If this does not seem scriptural, I would appreciate input and scripture to explain. thanks!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Ginakay,

Jesus told the Samaritan woman that Salvation is of the Jews. I am not completely sure what he meant but I think it is to do with the fact that God chose to use Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob to be the means of revealing himself to the world. And, of course, our Messiah also came from this source as well (humanly speaking).

You are correct. If you are computer literate, do a Google search for "kingdom of God" + definitions. Basically the "Kingdom of God" (on this earth) is defined as "whereever God manifests His presence". i.e. The Garden of Eden, in the Burning Bush, in the pillars of Fire and Smoke, in the Ark of the Covenant, in the Tabernacle, in the Temple, AND in Christ and US. As can be seen, the "kingdom of God" was manifested on this earth long before God chose the vehicle of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through which to manifest His Glory.

Have you studied (I assume you have) the Solomon Temple? Once it was completed and everything was dedicated, then the "Shekanah Glory" descended upon it. But once this temple was destroyed, the "Shekanah Glory" NEVER returned to the Temple. The next time we see this "Shekanah Glory", was as the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus as He was baptized. It was now that through our Savior, was God's glory manifested, He received the "spirit without measure", meaning the "fulness of the Holy Ghost". Jesus promised His disciples later that He would not leave them comfortless but would send the Holy Spirit and fire to indwell them, which of course occurred at Pentecost.

In the meantime, the GLORY OF GOD (the Kingdom of God), departed from the Nation of Israel and went to the Gentiles. It became and is now through the gentiles that God was and is being made manifest to the world. It is no longer through Israel, although God has not forgotten the promises to the Jewish Fathers.

I was thinking that the Church, the body of Christ, is made up of believers of all ages. But that it is never separate from the promises made to Abraham. THat therefore, to be a Christian, would be to have been made spiritual heirs of the promises of Abraham. That is why I was thinking of it as the church being grafted in to the spiritual Israel. However that may be the wrong term. Mainly I am just acknowledging that we owe a lot to the Jewish faith which is the root or our own Christian faith and how can we separate ourselves form that root? So it seemed like grafted in was the right term.

That terminology is also used in scripture.

I agree that we are deeply indebted to the peoples of Israel through whom we receive the law and the prophets, the great witness of their testimony and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I think that "spiritual heirs of the promises of Abraham" is a pretty reasonable assertion, but as I have pointed out we are not "grafted in to the spiritual Israel. They are only "branches" as we are, and the Olive Tree represents the Kingdom of God. So we are grafted into what was once THEIR tree (the Kingdom of God), but was taken from them, and are now grafted in ALONGSIDE (we have come nigh to the commonwealth of Israel) by virture of the shed blood of our Lord.

On the other hand I believe that the physical or natural Jewish people have a place in the plan of God that is not displaced by the church.

You are correct, God has not finished with Israel yet, the bulk of them still have to be grafted back into what once was their own tree.

If this does not seem scriptural, I would appreciate input and scripture to explain. thanks!

I think you do quite well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shiloh,

I have never said that God took away the "nation" from Israel. The Kingdom of God is NOT "the nation".

Please read my last post to Ginakay.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie