Christian/Messianic

[Snowdoove]

Pray for the peace of Israel!

Do these two words mean the same?

Christian/ Messianic.

Snowdoove :il: :il:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Snowdove,

Do these two words mean the same?

Christian/ Messianic.

I don't know what depth of study you had in mind, but Messianic applies to those who looked forward to the coming Messiah as found in ONLY these two verses:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

04899 mashiyach {maw-shee'-akh}

from 04886; TWOT - 1255c; n m

AV - anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39

1) anointed, anointed one

1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince

1b) of the king of Israel

1c) of the high priest of Israel

1d) of Cyrus

1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Modern day Orthodox Jews refer to Messiah with the Hebraic name "Mashiyach". We (Christians) have the further revelation of the NT from which we are able to determine that indeed Jesus the Christ IS the OT Messiah:

Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (SEE Isaiah 61:1-2)

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

John 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

Acts 4:24-27 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Regarding those who follow/followed Christ, they were called "disciples", and:

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

5546 Christianos {khris-tee-an-os'}

from 5547; TDNT - 9:493,1322; n pr m

AV - Christian 3; 3

1) Christian, a follower of Christ

No such designation as "Messianic" is found in the Bible. I am not positive of the etymology of this term, but it generally applies to those who maintain some connection to Jewish roots. True Messianics, I believe are Jewish of Israel, if you will. They recognize that Christ IS the awaited Messiah which their ancestors had looked for. Gentiles on the other hand, have NO such history. Those gentiles that I have become acquainted with that call themselves Messianic, look to adopt Jewish traditions and Jewish laws in the hope that it makes them more "spiritual". I believe these two verses pertain to them:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

I will probably catch a lot of flack on this, but as you can see - the scriptures speak for themselves.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Jedi4Yahweh]

In

Christian/ Messianic

In its true since they do mean the same thing, but today they are used differantly.

The word "Christian" refers to anyone that is a follower and believer of Yahshua the Messiah.

The word "Messianic" is used today to mean a Jewish person that is a follower and believer of Yahsuah as Messiah.

The word Messianic means: relating to the messiah. So we as Christains are messianic and a Jewish believer is also a Christian. The word Chirst in Christian means Messiah.

So they are interchangable.

There is no differance between a Jewish believer and a Gentile believer. They are both Christian and Messianic.

Thanks,

[Guest yod]

No such designation as "Messianic" is found in the Bible. I am not positive of the etymology of this term, but it generally applies to those who maintain some connection to Jewish roots. True Messianics, I believe are Jewish of Israel, if you will. They recognize that Christ IS the awaited Messiah which their ancestors had looked for. Gentiles on the other hand, have NO such history. Those gentiles that I have become acquainted with that call themselves Messianic, look to adopt Jewish traditions and Jewish laws in the hope that it makes them more "spiritual". I believe these two verses pertain to them:

ouch!

I don't know where you get your information but I've been in the messianic movement since 1990 and you are flat out wrong.

And I take great exception to your analogy!

I first became messianic as a way of rejecting the cultural traditions of the church which could not be found in the Bible. I mostly wanted something devoid of Catholicism. The Catholics are correct in saying that Protestant churches are just splits from them. The can't say that about messianic jewish believers.

So the term "messianic" isn't in the Bible??? Neither is Easter or Christmas but I think you would call them christian, right?

Of all people, you should know that etymology is the study of a changing language. The term "Messianic" as it relates to this discussion didn't come into being until 1967 when the MJAA was formed and the Chernoff family changed the name of the Hebrew-Christian Alliance to more accurately reflect who they were.

The words "microwave oven" don't appear in the Bible either. So what? Does this mean that it doesn't have a valid definition in modern times?

The answer to the original question is that there is but ONE faith, ONE God, and ONE Spirit...yet there are differences of cultural expression.

The root of the church is jewish so why would jews have to become as the overwhelmingly gentile church to satisfy anyone else's criteria of being a christian?

And if some gentiles see them as a closer model of the original church than the western traditional/cultural church, why would that make us any less a sincere follower of Yeshua than you?

Sure, there are legalists in the messianic movement just as there are legalists in the western cultural church. So what? There are kooks in every denomination

But brother, PLEASE don't make the mistake of saying that this is everyone because that would not only be a wrong assessment, it would be unfounded gossip.

:x:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod, my Brother in the Faith,

The root of the church is jewish so why would jews have to become as the overwhelmingly gentile church to satisfy anyone else's criteria of being a christian?

And if some gentiles see them as a closer model of the original church than the western traditional/cultural church, why would that make us any less a sincere follower of Yeshua than you?

I had a feeling...

Now I certainly DID NOT say a Jew had to become like a gentile, although I can see where you think I may have implied it. I have no problem with "traditions", as long as they are ONLY rememberances, reminders of past events that have lead up to our current status in Christ Jesus. The Jews "history" (please note the word) is long and rich. They have provided the church much in every way. If a Jew wants to maintain a link to HIS HERITAGE, then by all means, I and Paul do not have anything against that - even circumcision or Sabbath observation. But these things are NOTHING towards ones salvation.

However, OTOH, gentiles have a heritage of rebellion, without God and without the Fathers and the Prophets. We take part in what they have passed down to us thanks to the partition that was torn in two with the incident of the cross.

Peter, as you know, was rightly castigated by Paul for attempting to play both sides of the street, but mainly his native family of Jews by requiring "circumcision" of the gentiles. Praise God that He loved the Lord and repented. And so we find these verses in Acts pertaining to the Gentiles:

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Of the "traditions of the Jews", these things ONLY are imposed upon the Gentiles because of the significance they have to Christ and our walk with Him.

Yet the Messianic Gentiles in a futile attempt at throwing off their own traditions desire to acquire the traditions of the Jews.

This thing we do know:

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Gentiles too have a rich history. Consider Methuselah. Jesus was made a high priest "after the order of Methuselah", a gentile. Consider the story of Ruth a Moabitess. And of course there are many other "gentiles" in the scriptures which reveal the handiwork of the One True God.

So if viewed in the proper light, why is it that a gentile would even want to become a Jew - even ONLY one "spiritually"?

Now, by all means, I believe that we should "draw alongside" (Eph 2:13 says "made nigh") the Jews so that both may draw from each other and complete the "habitation" (Eph 2:22) which Christ is currently building on this earth.

How often do you see Messianic Gentiles wearing a yumulka? How about Jewish priestly garb? How about not cutting their beard? How about celebrating the Passover? Hanukah(sp?)? On and on it goes. These "traditions" are Jewish! Period! It was not our "forefathers" that went through these things to pass on the traditions of observances, so how does it "please God" that a gentile would partake of them?

Nay, my dear brother, we are gentiles, "wild olive branches, grafted in to the one true Olive tree" from which source we derive our very being in Christ. We are grafted in among those of the "true branches", and it should be our desire to see "more" of the true branches grafted back in. But we, being gentiles, do not have the right to partake of their customs and observances. We learn from them and share with them the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Blessings my Brother in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Of the "traditions of the Jews", these things ONLY are imposed upon the Gentiles because of the significance they have to Christ and our walk with Him.

Everyone has traditions. Does that make them inherently evil or rebellious? The Council in Acts 10 was not as clear 2,000 years ago as it is today. This was a serious matter of breaking with traditions which were older than the church is even today. They made the correct conclusion that these things should not be "forced" upon anyone to enter into the house of faith. They also said that Moses was being preached everywhere already which implies that gentiles would be guided by the Torah to the extent of their convictions through the Holy Spirit. They did not say that gentiles should NOT follow the teachings of the oracles of God.

Yet the Messianic Gentiles in a futile attempt at throwing off their own traditions desire to acquire the traditions of the Jews.

Again...are you saying that the traditions of the church are any better than the traditions of the jews? I see no scriptural admonition against either. It is a matter of personal conscience.

Gentiles too have a rich history. Consider Methuselah. Jesus was made a high priest "after the order of Methuselah", a gentile.

I caught you in a mistake which means your entire life has been discredited

You mean Malchizadech?

Consider the story of Ruth a Moabitess. And of course there are many other "gentiles" in the scriptures which reveal the handiwork of the One True God.

OK...let's consider her. She joined herself to the land of Israel, to the jewish people, to their customs as well as their Law. How does this example do anything but prove MY point?

Now, by all means, I believe that we should "draw alongside" (Eph 2:13 says "made nigh") the Jews so that both may draw from each other and complete the "habitation" (Eph 2:22) which Christ is currently building on this earth.

Some just would rather identify with Israel over cultural christianity. Is that really so wrong?

How often do you see Messianic Gentiles wearing a yumulka? How about Jewish priestly garb? How about not cutting their beard? How about celebrating the Passover? Hanukah(sp?)? On and on it goes. These "traditions" are Jewish! Period! It was not our "forefathers" that went through these things to pass on the traditions of observances, so how does it "please God" that a gentile would partake of them?

Again, this is all cultural expression. No worse than eating ham for Easter. Have a little grace towards those you don't understand.

I don't know if I've told you this but I am a wandering goy. I travel to messianic congregations all over America (and the world). I NEVER wear a Yarmulke. I have only been asked to do this once and I politely refused. They accepted my decision without complaint. However, when I went to David's Tomb in Jerusalem I put one on to show respect. I think you would find that this is the motive behind most messianics.

I can also show you entire congregations that don't wear kipa (yarmulke)

Nay, my dear brother, we are gentiles, "wild olive branches, grafted in to the one true Olive tree" from which source we derive our very being in Christ. We are grafted in among those of the "true branches", and it should be our desire to see "more" of the true branches grafted back in. But we, being gentiles, do not have the right to partake of their customs and observances. We learn from them and share with them the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

we have a small disagreement really.

We don't have the obligation to do this, but we have every right if our conscience guides us in this way.

I agree that we should keep our individuality...and I've seen the extreme lengths folks will go to for acceptance...but that is not always for the prideful reasons of being more "spiritual" as you have suggested. You are judgeing the motives of people's hearts when you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Please don't do that in a public forum.

BTW.....you look exactly like I pictured you to look.

That's why I didn't put my picture in there.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I caught you in a mistake which means your entire life has been discredited 

You mean Malchizadech?

This morning my wife caught me in the same gaff. I deserve to be tied to a toothpick and whipped with a wet noodle.

Don't you think the word "traditions" applies to one's heritage? As I have SCRIPTURALLY demonstrated, the Jews have THEIR traditions and gentiles have theirs. But if your conscience dictates that you act as a Jew, then so be it. Perhaps somewhere along the line you really are.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Don't you think the word "traditions" applies to one's heritage? As I have SCRIPTURALLY demonstrated, the Jews have THEIR traditions and gentiles have theirs.

can you not see that traditions can be biblical, cultural, or even both?

But if your conscience dictates that you act as a Jew, then so be it. Perhaps somewhere along the line you really are.

That seems uncharacteristically rude of you, dad. Maybe you have been hanging around with me for too long?

I am not advocating that anyone becomes something they aren't and you know it.

But if obeying the Word of God makes someone jewish in your mind then so be it.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

can you not see that traditions can be biblical, cultural, or even both?

As best I can discern from the scriptures, "biblical traditions" are those given by our Lord and the ones passed on to us by the Apostles in the book of Acts. To the Gentiles we find that we are not to be loaded up with the traditions of the Jews. But if you feel you must, then go ahead, just don't rely on scripture to support you.

That seems uncharacteristically rude of you, dad. Maybe you have been hanging around with me for too long?

[nebula]

I am feeling a bit confused by the source of this argument going on.

I've always heard the term "Messianic" to apply to those Jews who have come to believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah (Mashiach).

I love Messianic worship (Liberated Wailing Wall, Paul Wilbur, Lamb, Karen Davis, etc.). I have a ring that bears the name of Jesus in the original Hebrew letters. I have gained richly by attending the Passover services my church(es) have held - actually, I believe every Christian should participate in a Passover Sedar (sp?) at least once. My church annually celebrates the Feast of Tabernacles. Pentecost is actually one of the Jewish feast days (Feast of Booths, I think?).

I, myself, would not "convert" to "Judaism" or "Messianicism" (?) because there is no need to. However, my Christian life has been incredibly enriched by drawing into the life and culture of the religion originally founded by Yahweh to make His name known among the peoples.

It's not about "laws" or "traditons," it's about love. I draw life out of integrating the "Jewishness" of the roots of my faith into my life.

Maybe think of it this way, we are the Bride of Christ, right? Well, taking this from a woman's perspective, I find joy in absorbing myself into the things of the man in my life (interests, sports teams, etc.). In the same way, I find joy in absorbing myself into the culture that Jesus was a part of.

Make sense?